BaL 5.10.24 - Brahms: Symphony 1

[Ein Heldenleben]

Although I don’t think for a second that BAL reviewers are under pressure to choose new releases it is absolutely the case that the PR industry has a questionable influence on the media generally and Radio 3 is no exception. The PR people and agents control access to their clients ensuring that it always coincides with a new book or release . And if you turn them over (to use the vulgar media slang ) you don’t get a second invite . Ok most classical musicians aren’t villains -but just occasionally perhaps the odd assertion could possibly be challenged ?
Ask yourself when was the last time you heard a challenging or even remotely critical interview on Radio 3 ? The last one I heard was Sean Rafferty tackling the Chief exec on the cuts at WNO. He’s an old Northern Ireland current affairs hand - nobody’s fool -and guess what they are side lining him!

[Barbirollians]

As insomnia strikes I thought I would look up when the other Brahms symphonies were last on BAL - obviously no 3 was on earlier this year but it’s first since 2008 .Brahms 2 Jurowski won in 2013 but Brahms 4 apparently not since 2006 yet we get Brahms 1 again after only six years all very odd.

[smittims]

oliver says ' I love the Furtwangler but I'm happy to admit that in many respects it's not really Brahms'.

You won't be surprised to see that I disagree entirely! I think Furtwangler's Brahms is utterly in the spirit of the composer. I was thrilled with the 1952 Vienna recording when it was issued on LP in the 1980s. I also like the published RCA Toscanini from a similar vintage (Carnegiie Hall 6/11/51) , though there's another fine one from May 1940. I think they're both echt-Brahms.

[LMcD]

Ask yourself when was the last time you heard a challenging or even remotely critical interview on Radio 3 ?

Such a thing would hardly sit well with what comes across, at least to me, as the new soothing, relaxing, welcoming Radio 3. Everything now seems to be 'amazing'.

[oliver sudden]

oliver says ' I love the Furtwangler but I'm happy to admit that in many respects it's not really Brahms'.

You won't be surprised to see that I disagree entirely! I think Furtwangler's Brahms is utterly in the spirit of the composer. I was thrilled with the 1952 Vienna recording when it was issued on LP in the 1980s. I also like the published RCA Toscanini from a similar vintage (Carnegiie Hall 6/11/51) , though there's another fine one from May 1940. I think they're both echt-Brahms.

Performance practice is a bit like a funeral sometimes… (is it what he would have wanted?)

[Barbirollians]

Performance practice is a bit like a funeral sometimes… (is it what he would have wanted?)

Isnt there the story of two ensembles playing a piece of his chamber music to him in the 1890s and he praised both highly despite the performances being completely different?

[Barbirollians]

oliver says ' I love the Furtwangler but I'm happy to admit that in many respects it's not really Brahms'.

You won't be surprised to see that I disagree entirely! I think Furtwangler's Brahms is utterly in the spirit of the composer. I was thrilled with the 1952 Vienna recording when it was issued on LP in the 1980s. I also like the published RCA Toscanini from a similar vintage (Carnegiie Hall 6/11/51) , though there's another fine one from May 1940. I think they're both echt-Brahms.

I agree - I recall , and I am sure I have mentioned this before a discussion on Record Review in the 1980s when a Brahms Furtwangler 1 was released , it could have been either the BPO or VPO ( probably the latter ) when one of the attendees who was teaching at one of the big music colleges said that playing it to a group of students who were very down on Brahms had had a rather a Damascene effect on many of them . Perhaps Oliver will say that's because it wasn't Brahms

[silvestrione]

Performance practice is a bit like a funeral sometimes… (is it what he would have wanted?)

Do you mean Furtwangler ignores tempo indications and expression marks, etc.? I have not heard that stressed much before (I'm not a score-follower). If you mean anything less tangible, I would say, it's unknowable.

[smittims]

I must admit I found Oliver's last mesage too gnomic to understand. I don't fnd anything funereal in either Furtwangler's or Tosacnini's Brahms 1. There is a famous letter from Brahms to a friend about performing his music, where he says 'I cant do enough slowings-down.'

[LMcD]

I must admit I found Oliver's last mesage too gnomic to understand. I don't fnd anything funereal in either Furtwangler's or Tosacnini's Brahms 1. There is a famous letter from Brahms to a friend about performing his music, where he says 'I cant do enough slowings-down.'

I don't even know what 'gnomic' means, but will investigate straight away!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I must admit I found Oliver's last mesage too gnomic to understand. I don't fnd anything funereal in either Furtwangler's or Tosacnini's Brahms 1. There is a famous letter from Brahms to a friend about performing his music, where he says 'I cant do enough slowings-down.'

It means that interpreting the wishes post mortem of a composer and a de-composer*are pretty much the same thing.

*apologies couldn’t resist.

[Barbirollians]

Listened to the VPO/Furtwangler from 1952 this morning. It never gets less wonderful. It certainly sounded like Brahms to me.

[richardfinegold]

I listened to the live HvK/BPO set from Paris 1975 today. I think he gets the introduction just right. It isn’t slow and ponderous but it doesn’t sound rushed and it perfectly launches what follows. I wound up listening to all four symphonies which sounded wonderfully spontaneous

[duncan]

I enjoyed this BaL but wish Katy Hamilton had been left to her own devices. As I've said previously, I think Andrew tends to stick his oar in more often with women reviewers.

Brahms symphonies have a host of excellent interpretations on record and it shouldn't be a complete surprise that one reviewer's favourite does not get a mention from another. I enjoyed some of the lighter-on-their-feet versions and the winner sounded sonically excellent too. I still favour Karajan's 1977 'Heavy Metal' Brahms, perhaps because I have "big speakers"! The live RFH 1999 version means even more to me (happy to learn there is a CD, my recording is an off-air cassette). Perhaps this is less related to intrinsic quality than its associations: I had just moved to London, was thrilled at the range of music available, had some disposable income at last, and was going to several concerts a week. This one was sold-out so I queued for hours for returns but sadly but didn't quite get in. The effect of non-musical factors in how one hears a performance leads me to my second point...

The discussion around favouring recent recordings reminds me of chat about Premiership referees favouring top teams. Biases have been demonstrated in the data but it is unlikely referees are given explicit instructions or money changes hands as the more conspiratorial suggest. This would not stay a secret for long. However it is highly likely that unconscious biases affect decisions. Speaking generally about reviewing, classical music is a small world: reviewers probably know some performers or other industry folk, or be friends-of-friends. A less than enthusiastic review could lead to awkward moments in the concert bar, a positive one means you get to write the sleeve notes. None of this has to be conscious and it certainly won't be under editorial instruction but, I suggest, it can still have an influence.

[richardfinegold]

I enjoyed this BaL but wish Katy Hamilton had been left to her own devices. As I've said previously, I think Andrew tends to stick his oar in more often with women reviewers.

Brahms symphonies have a host of excellent interpretations on record and it shouldn't be a complete surprise that one reviewer's favourite does not get a mention from another. I enjoyed some of the lighter-on-their-feet versions and the winner sounded sonically excellent too. I still favour Karajan's 1977 'Heavy Metal' Brahms, perhaps because I have "big speakers"! The live RFH 1999 version means even more to me (happy to learn there is a CD, my recording is an off-air cassette). Perhaps this is less related to intrinsic quality than its associations: I had just moved to London, was thrilled at the range of music available, had some disposable income at last, and was going to several concerts a week. This one was sold-out so I queued for hours for returns but sadly but didn't quite get in. The effect of non-musical factors in how one hears a performance leads me to my second point...

The discussion around favouring recent recordings reminds me of chat about Premiership referees favouring top teams. Biases have been demonstrated in the data but it is unlikely referees are given explicit instructions or money changes hands as the more conspiratorial suggest. This would not stay a secret for long. However it is highly likely that unconscious biases affect decisions. Speaking generally about reviewing, classical music is a small world: reviewers probably know some performers or other industry folk, or be friends-of-friends. A less than enthusiastic review could lead to awkward moments in the concert bar, a positive one means you get to write the sleeve notes. None of this has to be conscious and it certainly won't be under editorial instruction but, I suggest, it can still have an influence.

I am intrigued by the mention of a live 1999 from RFH. Of course Karajan had been deceased for about a decade by then, but I assume that you are referring to a release date. Can you provide some details?