BaL 5.10.24 - Brahms: Symphony 1

[makropulos]

This is very tough because there are so many I like for different reasons. Among others:
Klemperer (EMI)
Boult (EMI)
Kempe/Berlin PO (EMI, now Testament)
Jochum/Berlin (DG, mono)
Furtwängler live (EMI), Walter (VPO and NYPO – HMV and Sony)
Chailly (Leipzig – Decca)
Mackerras (Telarc)
Wand (RCA)

[Barbirollians]

Another classic is the Karajan BPO at the RFH - that coda !

[Barbirollians]

Listening to that DG 1952 BPO Furtwangler - I think Ivan Hewett had a point !

[Pulcinella]

I haven't checked the previous thread, but I don't think there's been mention yet in this one of the (thorny?) issue of the first movement exposition repeat.

Any thoughts, or observances of which recordings have it or not?

[Petrushka]

I haven't checked the previous thread, but I don't think there's been mention yet in this one of the (thorny?) issue of the first movement exposition repeat.

Any thoughts, or observances of which recordings have it or not?

Was Boult the first conductor to include the first movement repeat in his recording? The conductors of the old school (Karajan, Bohm, Furtwangler, Klemperer etc) never did and in all honesty I don't think it gains much by being repeated.

There's a rather good Brahms 1 in the recently issued Josef Krips box (vol 2) on Decca Eloquence set down with the Vienna Philharmonic in October 1956 in stereo.

[oliver sudden]

I haven't checked the previous thread, but I don't think there's been mention yet in this one of the (thorny?) issue of the first movement exposition repeat.

Any thoughts, or observances of which recordings have it or not?

I’m always disappointed if it’s not there. It always feels too soon to start the development and you always lose an important link to the transition from the recap into the coda (as in the 3rd although it’s even more of a loss there).

It’s interesting that the book on the Meiningen Brahms performance practice just says ‘die Wiederholung bleibt weg’. I can’t make myself agree. Although I must admit I don’t see any reason to try particularly hard.

[smittims]

I regret I have not made a study of who plays the first movement repeat. My bugbear is the third movement repeat, in the trio (bar 108 or 8 before E in the Breitkopf score). The only conductor I know who omits it is Stokowski and he omitted it in all the performances I've heard him conduct. It's a pity as I love that little 'German Band' bar. It reminds me of a lovely exchange in 'Song Of Summer' :

Delius: Ah, Scarborough! Tell me , do they still have that German band in the pier?

Fenby: Er, no, not since the war.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I haven't checked the previous thread, but I don't think there's been mention yet in this one of the (thorny?) issue of the first movement exposition repeat.

Any thoughts, or observances of which recordings have it or not?

My view on exposition repeats is that they are largely unnecessary (and Brahms himself effectively said the same). The musical “argument” in sonata form movements is largely one of key changes. In the the exposition, there is a musical transition from the home (tonic) key to a related key for the second subject, in preparation for the development, which utilises many keys. But once the new key has been established, it makes little musical sense to return to the beginning and plough through it all again.

In concerto sonata form, this anomaly is neatly dealt with. The second subject in the orchestra exposition usually remains firmly in the tonic key, so that the modulating exposition only occurs when the soloist enters.


On another subject - if you like HIPP, then JEG is the one to go for, as he uses natural horns. Norrington et al don’t.

[smittims]

I don't miss an exposition repeat in romantic music (was Rachmaninov's Third of 1936 the last example?) where the tonality moves on more , but in the classical era, especially Haydn and Mozart, I think it's important. Mozart in particular made extensive use of an AAB device: say it, repeat it, say something new. He does this even in short phrases.

It's significant, I think,that it was Beethoven who started the move away from repeating the exposition, in his later music, where the exposition already starts to elaborate the thematic material. So, no, I don't find it esential in Brahms, though there are some wonderful 'first time ' bars, as in the first movement of the second symphony. .

[silvestrione]

‘die Wiederholung bleibt weg'
I'm afraid I know hardly any German?

[oliver sudden]

‘die Wiederholung bleibt weg'
I'm afraid I know hardly any German?

Literally ‘the repetition stays away’

[oliver sudden]

On another subject - if you like HIPP, then JEG is the one to go for, as he uses natural horns. Norrington et al don’t.

I think it’s a bit more nuanced than that and JEG’s principal horn does too…

https://www.historicbrass.org/edocman/hbj-2011/HBSJ_2011_JL01_007_Scott.pdf

[Alison]

For edge of seat excitement nobody can quite match Klaus Tennstedt LPO live 1992. It’s probably OTT, excessively heavy and tumultuous but I love it.

For what it’s worth, I haven’ t been able to warm to the soulless COE/Nezet-Seguin at all. I could imagine JLW raving over it.

And don’t write off Andrew Manze 👍

[richardfinegold]

For edge of seat excitement nobody can quite match Klaus Tennstedt LPO live 1992. It’s probably OTT, excessively heavy and tumultuous but I love it.

For what it’s worth, I haven’ t been able to warm to the soulless COE/Nezet-Seguin at all. I could imagine JLW raving over it.

And don’t write off Andrew Manze 👍

I finally had a proper listen to YNS. It’s lightweight, with some interesting ideas. Worth a listen but not not top shelf.
I agree re: Manze

[smittims]

'Edge-of-seat excitement' reminds me of the surviving fourth movement from a 1945 Furtwangler performance given inthe Admiralspalast , his last concert in Germany until May 1947. The Red Army was approaching, Monty and Ike were crossing the Rhine, so it's not surprising it was an intense occasion.