BaL 28.9.24 - JS Bach: English suites (BVW 806–811) [piano]

[smittims]

Thanks, Mandryka. I didn't know Jorg Demus had recorded the English suites. I used to have an old Columbia LP of him and Paul Badura-Skoda doing two of the two-harpsichord concertos, the slow movement of the C major concerto being especially memorable.

[MickyD]

The only problem with the 1984 Leonhardt set is that he omits the repeats...that may bother some more than others.
I'd forgotten that Kenneth Gilbert recorded them for Harmonia Mundi, but they have long been out of the catalogue. He's usually my go-to for Bach on the harpsichord.
Christophe Rousset has also recorded them, but I've not had the chance to hear his set.

[Pulcinella]

Can we expect a second programme with harpsichord versions? I bet we can't. Anyone else up for contributing to such a thread?

Launched as a Summer BaL thread.
(I'd considered a parallel alternative thread here but opted for the Summer sub-forum instead!)

[MickyD]

Thanks for that, look forward to reading the contributions !

[Beresford]

I prefer the coloristic and dynamic opportunities that a Piano offers vs a Harpsichord. I don’t care what instrument JSB originally composed them for ; I live in 2024, not 1724. I haveLeonhardt on my shelves for when I’m in the mood for the skeletons copulating on a tin roof

Even if the colours are false and the dynamics dodgy? I have Glenn Gould on my shelves for when I'm in the mood for nimble elephants trying to do Riverdance.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I have tried to like Bach on the piano (an instrument he was ambiguous about) but feel it much better suited to the harpsichord………

May I repeat the oft-quoted statement (who said it I don't know) that Bach would have written differently if writing for the piano?

Whilst agreeing that primary consideration should be given to the instrument that Bach composed for, the question of whether Bach would’ve written differently, had he written it for the piano, is unlikely to be the case. He wrote in the same way, whether it was for keyboards, orchestras or voices. Surely a different kind of keyboard would have had similar treatment.

[richardfinegold]

I quickly put Wanda Landowska's 1936 Suite no 2 on to help me recover! Gould



Thanks vinteuil, that's a very useful Pinnock list.

Landowska did play a monstrously big instrument. I remember so Polish Musician remarked during the German invasion that the Polish Army could have stopped a Panzer column with it

[CallMePaul]

Whilst agreeing that primary consideration should be given to the instrument that Bach composed for, the question of whether Bach would’ve written differently, had he written it for the piano, is unlikely to be the case. He wrote in the same way, whether it was for keyboards, orchestras or voices. Surely a different kind of keyboard would have had similar treatment.

Is it not possible that he would have given dynamic markings if writing for the piano? Also, if equal temperament has been the norm, he might have used remote keys more frequently. To my knowledge, in his keynoard music (except in the 48) he only oncewrote a movement in E-flat minor, and nothing else with more than 4 accidentals, Outside of the 48, I am not aware of anything for keyboard in minor keys with more than 2 sharps.

[Mandryka]

He wrote in the same way, whether it was for keyboards, orchestras or voices.

Well, I don't think it would be a particularly good idea to play brilliant harpsichord works like the toccata of the sixth partita of CU1 on an organ, and I think there are some special features of the orchestral and vocal writing in Matthew Passion which would be hard to transfer to other instruments (Butt talks about this a lot in his book on Bach and modernity.)

The question is not whether the music can be transposed. The question is more whether some significant things in the music are likely to be lost in the transposition.

By the way, I'll just comment here that recently I've been really enjoying Jörg Demus's performance of the English suites. Noone could argue that he intended a piano, and I'd say it's very arguable that you lose something by the lack brilliance. But it doesn't matter to me because Demus's is so poetic, such a natural musician in Bach. Some significant things are probably lost by the choice of instrument, but some things are gained by Demus's artistry.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Whilst agreeing that primary consideration should be given to the instrument that Bach composed for, the question of whether Bach would’ve written differently, had he written it for the piano, is unlikely to be the case. He wrote in the same way, whether it was for keyboards, orchestras or voices. Surely a different kind of keyboard would have had similar treatment.

As he always had an eye for the main chance don’t you think he would also have produced a very large number of organ to piano transcriptions thus putting Busoni , Brahms , Liszt out of business ?

[Retune]

Added and acknowledged.
Thanks.

Rochelle Sennet
(interesting concept album, a 3 CD set contrasting the English Suites with six lesser known suites by Black composers):

https://www.albanyrecords.com/catalog/troy1869-71/

[Pulcinella]

Rochelle Sennet
(interesting concept album, a 3 CD set contrasting the English Suites with six lesser known suites by Black composers):
...

Thanks: duly added. Lined up for streaming later.
I see that there are other volumes, covering the French Suites and the Partitas.

[Nick Armstrong]

Coincidentally, France Musique’s Tribune des Critiques de Disques recently ‘blind-listened’ to piano versions of No 2 BWV807… Murray Perahia came out on top.

Full results on the relevant thread just started: https://www.for3.org/forums/forum/cl...no?view=thread

[LMcD]

Add Andrea Bacchetti, Andrew Rangell, Ivo Janssen, Inge Rosar, Wolfgang Rubsam (Naxos ), Amadeus Webersinke, Alexander Borowsky.

Glenn Gould. Glen Gould is an indigenous Canadian actor.

[Pulcinella]

Glenn Gould. Glen Gould is an indigenous Canadian actor.

Oops!

Mind you, Glenn was quite the actor too, I suspect.