BaL 15.06.24 - Strauss: Also sprach Zarathustra

[silvestrione]

It provided a good work-out for the subwoofer - notably the Philharmonia/Bychkov recording - and I'm glad that I listened to the programme as Jonathan Cross was articulate and reasoned in his comments. Not that I have anything against the Vasily Petrenko recording but I thought that there was a touch of, "hmm, the 1972 Karajan would be too obvious a choice". ASZ still comes fairly high on my list of works to be avoided if at all possible - I really don't like Richard Strauss - and, alas, today's programme didn't alter my no doubt stupid antipathy.

I share it. For me, that setting in Mahler 3 says much more:

O Mensch! Gib Acht!
Was spricht die tiefe Mitternacht?
‘Ich schlief, ich schlief –,
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht: –
Die Welt ist tief,
Und tiefer als der Tag gedacht.
Tief ist ihr Weh –,
Lust – tiefer noch als Herzeleid:
Weh spricht: Vergeh!
Doch alle Lust will Ewigkeit –,
– will tiefe, tiefe Ewigkeit!’

[Nick Armstrong]

I can't agree with those who say that the rest of the work is boring after the spectacular introduction. I found it an absorbing piece from the start and still do.

I’m with you completely - and it’s why the Kempe/Dresden has long been my go-to recording, as they give the most seductive reading of ‘the rest’ … after an opening which isn’t especially spectacular, definitely an introduction to ‘the rest’ rather than a thing in itself.

Rather enjoyed Jonathan Cross’s way with the limited BAL format (although he did leave a couple of puzzles about the extracts played). I’m going to seek out the Bychkov/Philharmonia because I want to hear those outrageous timps again!

[Roger Webb]

I share it. For me, that setting in Mahler 3 says much more:

O Mensch! Gib Acht!
Was spricht die tiefe Mitternacht?
‘Ich schlief, ich schlief –,
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht: –
Die Welt ist tief,
Und tiefer als der Tag gedacht.
Tief ist ihr Weh –,
Lust – tiefer noch als Herzeleid:
Weh spricht: Vergeh!
Doch alle Lust will Ewigkeit –,
– will tiefe, tiefe Ewigkeit!’

Not to mention that in Delius's 'Mass of Life'! Hugely popular in Germany before WW1.

[Roger Webb]

… although the thing that jumped out to me just listening to the start of BAL was a nasty brass split note in that opening of the ‘73 Karajan

I've had the '73 Karajan since it was released, then CD, and now Qobuz.....I don't hear a 'nasty brass split note'....perhaps it's not quite as 'clean' as we've come to expect, but 'nasty'?

Go, have a listen to the prelude to Rheingold in the Solti version, Culshaw had the devil's own job to get Roland Berger and his horn section of the VPO to play that without splitting, in the end they pencilled in a special session late at night, and after a few drinks managed to get an acceptable take - listening to it now you wouldn't believe it was the best one of the many they took! No 'splits', but it certainly isn't as clean as you'd like.

[oliver sudden]

I still have something at 16hz, but it's curtailed....always difficult to know, as maybe the recording is down at that frequency.

I use a Quad L-Series subwoofer in conjunction with Quad 2812 electrostatics. The electrostatics are about 3db down at 38hz, and the low pass on the sub is set to 45hz. They 'marry' very well, and orchestral bass drums (usually about 38hz fundamental) are truly awesome, double basses down to their 'normal' E (41hz), open bottom string - especially 'pizz', are very satisfying.

For 8hz.....you need to be there!

I’m not sure in any case to what extent an eardrum picks up those frequencies. I have a feeling there’s a bit of psychoacoustics involved, with the brain assembling the fundamental from the overtones…

There’s a low B or two for the double basses in Also Sprach (German five-string basses normally have the lowest string as a B rather than a C).

[oliver sudden]

… although the thing that jumped out to me just listening to the start of BAL was a nasty brass split note in that opening of the ‘73 Karajan

I don’t normally listen to much Karajan but I’m glad I investigated that. At about 0:48, yes? Juicy.

[Roger Webb]

I’m not sure in any case to what extent an eardrum picks up those frequencies. I have a feeling there’s a bit of psychoacoustics involved, with the brain assembling the fundamental from the overtones…

There’s a low B or two for the double basses in Also Sprach (German five-string basses normally have the lowest string as a B rather than a C).

I think you're right about the capacity of the ear to 'hear' much below mid 20hz region, it's more that one feels it - given sufficient amplitude to move the air in the room. I do think that having an unrestricted open bottom end means it's possible that one perceives the ambience of the hall more than actually hearing anything. I use a spectrum analyser in my music room, and its surprising how much below 20hz is on some recordings - traffic noise for example.

[Roger Webb]

..........I’m going to seek out the Bychkov/Philharmonia because I want to hear those outrageous timps again!

For another example of, what I think must be Andy 'Thumper' Smith playing timps, try the Respighi, Belkis, Queen of Sheba with Geoffrey Simon/Philharmonia on Chandos 8405.

Many of the musicians visiting the city where I had my CD shop popped in between rehearsal and performance, and two such from the Hallé did one afternoon. Turns out they were percussionists and asked if I had anything which featured their instruments prominently. I immediately thought of the Respighi, and after playing the 2nd movt. they looked at each other and said 'That's Andy isn't it'! At the time I was amazed that one could tell one timpanist from another.....not so now, as 'Thumper' seems legend in the 'kitchen dept'!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285868873023

[Ein Heldenleben]

For another example of, what I think must be Andy 'Thumper' Smith playing timps, try the Respighi, Belkis, Queen of Sheba with Geoffrey Simon/Philharmonia on Chandos 8405.

Many of the musicians visiting the city where I had my CD shop popped in between rehearsal and performance, and two such from the Hallé did one afternoon. Turns out they were percussionists and asked if I had anything which featured their instruments prominently. I immediately thought of the Respighi, and after playing the 2nd movt. they looked at each other and said 'That's Andy isn't it'! At the time I was amazed that one could tell one timpanist from another.....not so now, as 'Thumper' seems legend in the 'kitchen dept'!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285868873023

It doesn’t surprise me. They are a bit of a clan timpanists. I doubt, with the exception of first trumpet , that there is a more audible instrument in the whole orchestra. As for the subtleties of the Art a recent Inside Music by a British timps player showed just how complex it all is when he took us through his favourite movement the Funeral March from the Eroica.

[richardfinegold]

No easy way of knowing, given the ambiguity of what was said. Unless someone has both versions, and can be bothered to do some timing?

I think both versions were included in the Sony box of Reiner/CSO Richard Strauss, but I’m not at home and won’t be for some time.

on the subject of conductors that have made duplicate recordings, I find it is impossible to tell from streaming service or Amazon CD blurbs which version is on offer, especially since the record companies themselves reissue so frequently

[Pulcinella]

I think both versions were included in the Sony box of Reiner/CSO Richard Strauss, but I’m not at home and won’t be for some time

Looks like you're right, Richard.
Both included in this set: they last 31'49" and 33'51".

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8039751--fritz-reiner-conducts-richard-strauss

But only the one clocking in at 31'49" is in this:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8290010--richard-strauss-orchestral-works-concertos

[Roger Webb]

No easy way of knowing, given the ambiguity of what was said. Unless someone has both versions, and can be bothered to do some timing?

Well, ok, but that won't tell us which version was played. There's a couple of minutes difference in overall timing of the '54 and '62 versions, but they only played a bit of one (I'm sure it was the '62 version). I've always referred to the '54 as the 'Living Stereo' version, although, as has been pointed out there was a reissue of the '62 version on a CD with the Living Stereo logo on it.....a mistake by BMG/Sony?

[Nick Armstrong]

I've had the '73 Karajan since it was released, then CD, and now Qobuz.....I don't hear a 'nasty brass split note'....perhaps it's not quite as 'clean' as we've come to expect, but 'nasty'?

As a brass player of considerable mediocrity, not splitting notes is a perpetual struggle! I’d prefer not to hear one if basking in the rise of the sun / super man / whatever! So yes, I find it nasty!

(Perhaps more forgivable amid the surging waters of the Rhine… )

[HighlandDougie]

I've always referred to the '54 as the 'Living Stereo' version, although, as has been pointed out there was a reissue of the '62 version on a CD with the Living Stereo logo on it.....a mistake by BMG/Sony?

The 1962 LP has RCA Living Stereo on its sleeve so no reason not to use that branding on the CD??

[smittims]

I had the 1971(was it?) Victrola reissue of the Reiner Zarathustra and Don Juan , but it didn't say which recording it was . I guess the 1954, considered a showpiece on its first issue with a lovely photo of Fritz among the flowers, much nicer than the other recording which had a curious oily-looking sculpture.

I have unhappy memeories of the LP as it had a pressing fault, somethig like dust got into the stamper , making a pitted surface on the disc, and the grumpy woman in HMV Birmingham made such a fuss when I returned it, claiming I had scratched it, I didn't dare return the second copy . So it was pleasure to encounter the CD reissue.

I've never quite believed Reiner was the sourpuss he's depicted as. After all, he commissioned (and recorded) Robert Russell Bennett's 'Symphonic Picture' of Porgy and Bess, so he must have had a fun streak in him.