BaL 01.06.2024 - Elgar: Symphony 1

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

As for Solti taking his cue from 78 RPM recordings of Elgar, I thought that was a joke when first reviewed way back amd still think that's no way to understand these great symphonies.

It was an interesting thing to do, but famously reproduced an understandable error in the finale. Elgar had to stop recording every four minutes or so, while the new cutters were set up. On this occasion, he started the new take at a faster tempo, but this wasn’t marked in the score. It wasn’t noticed until that first World Record Club transfer, and no other conductors had done this until Solti and Barenboim copied the probable error.

[oliver sudden]

I get the point and indeed the Adagio is rather more an Andante but in the context of that performance as a whole it doesn’t bother me . I suspect because the other three movements are so intense.

What is it with live Boult and fast slow movements?

https://youtu.be/lth6Rvl8eW4?feature=shared

[akiralx]

What is it with live Boult and fast slow movements?

https://youtu.be/lth6Rvl8eW4?feature=shared

Not just live and not just Elgar - his stereo (EMI) Vaughan Williams 'A London Symphony' is marred for me by his treatment of the Lento: I have 11 other recordings where the timing range from 10'16 (Slatkin) to 13'27 (Hughes), with many around the 10'45 mark (my favourite, Thomson at 11'11) - and then Boult at 9'35.

I wonder why he did it - his Decca mono version is 11'06, over 90 secs slower.

[LMcD]

Not just live and not just Elgar - his stereo (EMI) Vaughan Williams 'A London Symphony' is marred for me by his treatment of the Lento: I have 11 other recordings where the timing range from 10'16 (Slatkin) to 13'27 (Hughes), with many around the 10'45 mark (my favourite, Thomson at 11'11) - and then Boult at 9'35.

I wonder why he did it - his Decca mono version is 11'06, over 90 secs slower.

.. or is his EMI recording over 90 seconds faster?

[smittims]

Sir Adrian used to invoke Richard Strauss' comment (made to him personally, I think) that most classical slow movements went well at two-in-a-bar, and he is often quite swift even in romantic symphonies, e.g. his recently-reissued Schumann set on Nixa/Westminster, Cesar Franck and others. Vaughan Williams told him to speed up,in his 'Pastoral Symphony' and when he later said Boult was taking it too fast and Boult reminded him of what he'd originaly said VW gave the disarming reply 'I've found since then that people aren't as bored with it as I'd expected'.

Despite my love of slow tempi, I think there's something to be said for getting a move on sometimes; it can help the structural cohesion ; I remember feeling Roger Woodward and Kurt Masur were too fast in the second movement of the Brahms D minor concerto, but their performance stays in my mind as quite profound and revelatory. Boult often conducted in a small broadcast studio and I think this may have tempted him to swifter tempi. In concertos he often speeds up when the soloist isn't playing, e.g. Rahmaninov's first concerto woith Peter Katin, Moeran's Cello concerto or the Tchaik fiddle concerto woth dear old Mischa Elman who tends to linger .

On the other hand he could be slow in a resonant acoustic, e.g. his Ely Cathedral DVD of The Dream of Gerontius.

[oliver sudden]

An interesting (to me) counterexample is the last movement of VW 6, especially in the old Decca recording studio where it lasts for jolly ever. It’s an intriguing case, that: it’s lovely in any individual moment but for me the movement just ends up lasting too long and overbalancing the rest of the piece. It’s Moderato after all, and however seriously one takes the metronome marking of 56 for the crotchet I don’t think it works if it’s motionless…

[smittims]

And yet Uncle Ralph was present and a recording of his voice afterwards confirms that he praised that particular performance. I must admit I've never thought it a moment too long or too slow. But you're right that at 12'46 it is the slowest of Boult's three recordings. In 1950 he took 10'52 and in 1967 11.22. Interestingly, the next recording (Maurice Abravenel) is marginally slower still at 12'51. I wonder if he used the 1953 Boult as a guide.

Another curiosity is in Boult's last VW recording,the Partita, in 1977, where he is noticably faster than in the 1956 recording with the composer present. So maybe he did not always regard the composer as always right.

[oliver sudden]

And yet Uncle Ralph was present and a recording of his voice afterwards confirms that he praised that particular performance. I must admit I've never thought it a moment too long or too slow. But you're right that at 12'46 it is the slowest of Boult's three recordings. In 1950 he took 10'52 and in 1967 11.22. Interestingly, the next recording (Maurice Abravenel) is marginally slower still at 12'51. I wonder if he used the 1953 Boult as a guide.

Another curiosity is in Boult's last VW recording,the Partita, in 1977, where he is noticably faster than in the 1956 recording with the composer present. So maybe he did not always regard the composer as always right.

I know quite a few composers and the only one who is always right is the mother of my twin boys!

And yet, having spent many happy hours in the company of VW 6, I’m inclined to side with the chap who wrote Moderato crotchet=56, even if that same chap was happy to hear it much slower—as indeed am I from time to time. (I really only mentioned it as a counterexample to the very brisk Boult slow movements we were mentioning.)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Elgar himself in his 1930 recording takes 10'19". It's a thrilling performance which isn't being talked about here. Is there any reason for doubting his interpretation due to the 78rpm side length? I thought that the detailed correspondence between Elgar and EMI producer Fred Gaisberg had largely dispelled such myths.

More recently, Menuhin was asked whether Elgar’s tempi were influenced by side lengths, and the answer was an emphatic “no”.

[Barbirollians]

Boult’s Scene by the Brook in his LPO/Beethoven 6 in the late 1970s was noted to be quite a brisk walk

[pastoralguy]

Hmm… The reviewer just remarked that Todd Handley’s CfP recording had disappeared. However, it’s still available, new, on Amazon. If you want it second hand it’s £1.02!

[Pulcinella]

Hmm… The reviewer just remarked that Todd Handley’s CfP recording had disappeared. However, it’s still available, new, on Amazon. If you want it second hand it’s £1.02!

I think that he might have said LIVE recording, but even that is still available through Presto:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7986770--handley-conducts-elgar

[Pulcinella]

My bet for this edition is going on a version that hasn’t received a mention so far (I think)

Edward Gardner conducting the BBC Symphony Orchestra (Chandos).

Hats off to Alison.



PS: Alpie used to highlight the winner and any runners up in his original listings.
Would it help if I edited the first post each time and gave the details of winners from the BBC R3 website?

[LMcD]

Hats off to Alison.



PS: Alpie used to highlight the winner an any runners up in his original listings.
Would it help if I edited the first post each time and gave the details of winners from the BBC R3 website?

I wonder how short the short list was.
It would be nice to think that somebody, somewhere, might have encountered this magnificent symphony for the first time today.
2 copies of Vernon Handley/LPO still available on World of Books at £3;59, and 1 copy of Barenboim/Staatskappelle at £4.99

[Roger Webb]

2 copies of Vernon Handley/LPO still available on World of Books at £3;59

Just snapped up a copy from Music Magpie via eBay for £2.82 incl. postage! I stupidly let the Lp go, and regretted it ever since.