BaL 01.06.2024 - Elgar: Symphony 1

[Roger Webb]

There seems to be a newish critical edition of said Suite which uses the manuscript as a source… Wikipedia has the following:

Although it is likely that Elgar originally expected only to supply a "short score" to be orchestrated by a brass band expert, in fact Elgar ultimately performed all the orchestration himself. Henry Geehl, a brass band composer and employee of R.Smith, later claimed to have orchestrated the piece, giving a highly circumstantial account of his involvement to several newspapers. However, in 1995 the original manuscript, entirely in Elgar's hand, resurfaced at auction — its emergence demonstrates that Geehl's longstanding claim to have orchestrated the work was in fact fraudulent. The manuscript was subsequently acquired by the Elgar Birthplace Museum, where it now resides.

Yes, thanks, I've seen that, which is why I ask about which key Elgar's score is actually written in. Elgar's version for full orchestra is in C major, and I have heard that Elgar's version of the brass band score is also in C major - that is played in C ie. two sharps (D maj) for the B flat instruments, and three sharps (A maj) for the E flatters. The problem is most of the versions I've heard are played in B flat...a 'good' key for brass instruments, and the key of the score, which incidentally is printed by Geehl's publishers R Smith!

Now, it's unlikely that Geehl, a very experienced brass band arranger would write a work in C major...effectively a sharp key. And, of course all but one recording I've heard is played in B flat - ie. written in C maj for the B flatters and one sharp (G maj) for the E flatters......for the first movt. (Worcester Castle) other movts are in related flat keys.

The one recording played in C major is the Williams Fairey Band on Chandos Brass Masters Vol 1, interestingly this came out in 1997, just after the Elgar Birthplace acquired the manuscript in Elgar's hand.

The Wiki statement that '....its emergence demonstrates that Geehl's longstanding claim to have orchestrated the work was fraudulent' doesn't stack up - particularly as there is a prolonged and rancourous correspondence between the two on technical matters! Geehl's name is on the R Smith published score as Arranger - isn't it likely that Elgar would have complained about this if Geehl wasn't responsible for the orchestration?

[Barbirollians]

It's all getting a bit off topic !

I thought about looking for a cheap ish second hand copy of the Gardner in case I was unfair to it on the basis of my relative disappointment with his Second but it seems none exist . Not sure if that is because it hasn’t sold that well or is treasured ?

[mikealdren]

Perhaps they've all sold because it's the BAL recommendation?

[smittims]

My understanding of the Severn Suite is that Elgar wrote a short score in C which Geehl ,,fending off suggestions from Elgar, treated as 'written-C' (i.e. in B flat for the cornets etc.). Elgar then wrote a full-orchestra score in C , which he recorded at Abbey Road in 1932, effectively its 'first performance'. I cannot help wondering if this was the score found at the birthplace; it seems unlikely Elgar would have made a brass version and then put it away in a drawer. . Some time in the 1970s or '80s Elgar Howarth and , I think, Geoffrey Brand, produced a re-scored Brass band version in C which was considered much superior to the Geehl version.

There is yet another version, Ivor Atkins' organ transcription of three movements (plus his own cadenza but omitting the minuet) which was published as 'organ sonata no. 2'. .

[cloughie]

It's all getting a bit off topic !

I thought about looking for a cheap ish second hand copy of the Gardner in case I was unfair to it on the basis of my relative disappointment with his Second but it seems none exist . Not sure if that is because it hasn’t sold that well or is treasured ?

I think that the trends towards downloads and streaming has vastly reduced the supply of reasonably priced used CDs. I have recently quite often resorted to downloading and burning because of this - often taking advantage of Presto time-limited offers! I purchased the Gardner 1&2 not long after release but though very good did not replace Barbirolli or Thomson in my preferred order! Maybe they just lacked the lurve a little.

[Roger Webb]

I think that the trends towards downloads and streaming has vastly reduced the supply of reasonably priced used CDs. :

I can't agree, I'm afraid. It's because of the trend towards downloads and streaming that so many CD collections are being dumped on the market (and, tragically, in skips)...of course a particular title may be hard to find - I looked and looked for a copy of Koechlin songs with orch. on SWR, and in the end bought one from Germany, total cost £23. I've just posted one spotted on eBay on the Koechlin thread for £8 plus £3.50 p & p. My copy of Elgar 1 Handley on Cfp just arrived, ordered Saturday from Music Magpie, total cost £2.82 incl p & p!

The many stories on our own Charity Shop Finds thread tells us that there are bargains aplenty.

The internet which makes possible the downloading and streaming also makes immeasurably easier searching for that illusive rarity!

[cloughie]

I can't agree, I'm afraid. It's because of the trend towards downloads and streaming that so many CD collections are being dumped on the market (and, tragically, in skips)...of course a particular title may be hard to find - I looked and looked for a copy of Koechlin songs with orch. on SWR, and in the end bought one from Germany, total cost £23. I've just posted one spotted on eBay on the Koechlin thread for £8 plus £3.50 p & p. My copy of Elgar 1 Handley on Cfp just arrived, ordered Saturday from Music Magpie, total cost £2.82 incl p & p!

The many stories on our own Charity Shop Finds thread tells us that there are bargains aplenty.

The internet which makes possible the downloading and streaming also makes immeasurably easier searching for that illusive rarity!

Yes, Roger, that was my point that more recent CDs are being pressed in smaller numbers and availability at reasonable prices is not what it was in times past. As I am not a fan of streaming I do notice the change in the market. Yes there a good charity shop finds but again maybe not as many as there were before Covid - since then there seems to be a greater reluctance to accept donations - this has largely been triggered by a fear of overload - much of this I think because of overpricing of items for which there is no market. I’ve got to the stage now of being more selective being an ageing collector with ‘ full shelf syndrome ‘. No cure but now maybe some ways to lessen the pain!

[Roger Webb]

Yes, Roger, that was my point that more recent CDs are being pressed in smaller numbers and availability at reasonable prices is not what it was in times past. As I am not a fan of streaming I do notice the change in the market. Yes there a good charity shop finds but again maybe not as many as there were before Covid - since then there seems to be a greater reluctance to accept donations - this has largely been triggered by a fear of overload - much of this I think because of overpricing of items for which there is no market. I’ve got to the stage now of being more selective being an ageing collector with ‘ full shelf syndrome ‘. No cure but now maybe some ways to lessen the pain!

Yes, I agree with all that. Of course those CDs and LPs that were, and, as you say, are, increasingly pressed in small numbers are going to be the rare ones.

I feel Gamekeeper turned Poacher in a way, as an owner of a CD shop until I retired, it might seem strange that I embrace streaming with such enthusiasm. But I assure you I have a very large LP and CD collection, and still add to it......streaming, I use to 'sample' new releases or out-of-the-way stuff that is Impossible to find a hard copy of.

In the long term streaming cannot fund recordings in the same way as selling Lps or CDs did, at least expensive orchestral and opera....and I think we're seeing the result of this in more and more 'live' recordings being released, many on 'own labels'.

What's the answer....I don't know!!

[HighlandDougie]

The (relatively) cheap copy of the BBC SO/Gardner arrived earlier, courtesy of Amazon France Marketplace. Maybe it's the slightly turgid recording (and I've just listened to it as an SACD, albeit 2-channel) - Watford Colosseum - or maybe I'm not in the mood (I tend to blow a bit hot and cold on Elgar) but I wasn't exactly thrilled. Whereas the recent Alexander Soddy/Mannheim performance did engage my interest - and it's recorded in a much more sympathetic acoustic. I only heard the first 20 minutes of the BaL and then life intervened so I don't know how it all ended with Ed Gardner as the choice.

[Barbirollians]

The (relatively) cheap copy of the BBC SO/Gardner arrived earlier, courtesy of Amazon France Marketplace. Maybe it's the slightly turgid recording (and I've just listened to it as an SACD, albeit 2-channel) - Watford Colosseum - or maybe I'm not in the mood (I tend to blow a bit hot and cold on Elgar) but I wasn't exactly thrilled. Whereas the recent Alexander Soddy/Mannheim performance did engage my interest - and it's recorded in a much more sympathetic acoustic. I only heard the first 20 minutes of the BaL and then life intervened so I don't know how it all ended with Ed Gardner as the choice.

Barbirolli was too slow , Boult was too fast , Barenboim was too emotional. Elder was not quite as well recorded as Gardner ...

[akiralx]

Barbirolli was too slow , Boult was too fast , Barenboim was too emotional. Elder was not quite as well recorded as Gardner ...

Was Sinopoli's DG recording mentioned - that is my favourite. Slightly slower than average (not like his very slow Second) but with impetus and great emotional power. I have Gardner's on high resolution download and it is enjoyable but doesn't have the sweep or beauty of the Sinopoli.

[Barbirollians]

No mention of Sinopoli but I agree with you . It is a splendid,individual distinctive account much praised by Michael Kennedy in Gramophone ( who was far less complimentary about Sinopoli’s Elgar 2.

[silvestrione]

I tried the JB Kings Lynn version, but did not get on with it for some reason. The Boult Proms performance, on the other hand, was thrilling. I didn't mind the speed for the slow movement: the whole performance was 'of a piece'. Brass-heavy in the first movement. Without the subtlety of the orchestral detail in my favoured JB Philharmonia. I was, nevertheless, slightly shocked to see JB takes 4 mins longer than Boult in the 1st movement!

[Lordgeous]

Without doubt that prom performance ranks (for me) amongst the greatest performances of anything, anywhere! I too had not considered any problem with the slow movement's speed - maybe I'm just used to it. Throughout, and especially in the closing passages, the brass is thrilling; I'm drawn more and more to 'live' recordings these days - to listen to that fantastic coda followed by silence seems unthinkable now. (Similarily Mahler 2, thinking of the wonderful Tennstedt RFH live recording.) I'm sure Sir Adrian and the players must have appreciated the audience's reaction.

[Barbirollians]

I tried the JB Kings Lynn version, but did not get on with it for some reason. The Boult Proms performance, on the other hand, was thrilling. I didn't mind the speed for the slow movement: the whole performance was 'of a piece'. Brass-heavy in the first movement. Without the subtlety of the orchestral detail in my favoured JB Philharmonia. I was, nevertheless, slightly shocked to see JB takes 4 mins longer than Boult in the 1st movement!

Give it time I would say - it is true that it is closer in speeds to Barbirolli's earlier Halle account than the Philharmonia but I find it brings all the beauty of the latter to the energy of the former .

Agree with you entirely about the Boult Prom - it blew my socks off when I first heard it in its original Pickwick release and still does on ICA Classics.