BaL 11.05.24 - Stravinsky: The Firebird

[richardfinegold]

It is the same Kate Molleson, Roger. As for the Firebird itself, doesn't she get it wrong in thinking that the hunt is a regrettable example of male on female violence? Unlike the Princess, the Firebird is a "they" (gender neutral) outside the human world altogether. The role needn't be danced by a woman, except by convention. If it were to be danced by a man, Kate would presumably shun such sexist comments as she made about the ballet's plot and theme? It really Will Not Do.

If a male Dancer was used the Hunt would be viewed as a metaphor for the Putin regime well documented Homophobia

[Master Jacques]

I see nothing wrong with that female composers have often rather been patronised or neglected or had to take backseats to their husband’s careers. Her position is not inconsistent.

The idea that Clara Schumann (for example) took a "backseat" to her husband is not supported by the facts. She was more famous than him, her iron will was never "patronised", and her music was more popular than his neglected works at the time. This was probably - in part - a contributory factor to Robert's mental illness.

Time has reversed the judgement as to the respective value of their music, despite the rear-guard (ultra-conservative) action being fought on Clara's behalf these days. Reviving second-rate old scores just because they're by women does a huge disservice to our contemporary composers, who hardly get a look in, due to Classic FM-style sanctimoniousness.

[smittims]

I agree wholeheartedly. I've always felt the intrinsic quality of the music (however that is assessed) should be the only criterion, not the composer's sex or racial origin.

[Master Jacques]

I agree wholeheartedly. I've always felt the intrinsic quality of the music (however that is assessed) should be the only criterion, not the composer's sex or racial origin.

Quite so. Which is more "patronising"? The critic who ignores a composer because their music is derivative and/or forgettable? Or the critic who praises it to the skies, because the composer is deemed to have not been given a fair chance by society?

[Roger Webb]

I see nothing wrong with that female composers have often rather been patronised or neglected or had to take backseats to their husband’s careers. Her position is not inconsistent.

When will the time come when female composers are thought of as just composers if they are selected by gender? This process has been around for so long perhaps we've become blind to it (well, not me!), I mean the selection of female composers to fill some notional quota - it's been an ambition of the BBC to have half the music played to be written by women composers. The consequence of this is we hear the same pieces by the same composers trotted out:- Doreen Carwithen, Mel Bonis, Lili Boulanger, Florence Price et al. Just take Doreen Carwithen (Mary Alwyn as she preferred), she is played more often than her neglected husband William Alwyn. Her small output not a patch on her husbands - his 5 symphonies should be played, but never are. His incomparable film music most obviously superior to Mary's slim output in the genre. My favourite works by Mary are the string quartets....but of course we never hear those. When Mary was CotW we were told '...some people are beginning to think that Doreen is a better composer than her husband'.....only those who haven't heard Williams music, I would suggest!

I remember looking through the Classic FM 'Hall of Fame' two or three years ago, of the 300 items selected, if I remember correctly, only one item was by a woman composer, and that was from a recent film score which would probably be dropped the following year. Now, it would be easy to say this is only Classic FM, those voting are not conversant with a wide enough range of music, but it's a startling contrast with the BBC aim, to play half of the music by women composers.

I studied Lili Boulanger's music when I came across the monograph by Léonie Rosenstiel, oh back in the 80s it must have been. She was little known then, but I set out to hear as much as I could, and managed to search out all the houses she lived in....as I do, particularly with all the French composers that I love. I hate to think of her being used as a quota filler!

[Master Jacques]

When will the time come when female composers are thought of as just composers if they are selected by gender? This process has been around for so long perhaps we've become blind to it (well, not me!), I mean the selection of female composers to fill some notional quota - it's been an ambition of the BBC to have half the music played to be written by women composers. [...]

If that is so, it's a scandalous position to take up, valorising social engineering above aesthetics, and art itself.

However, judging from William Mival's critical comments this morning (i.e. last Saturday afternoon) on Louise Farrenc - that darling of the network, whose mediocre symphonies have been held up as masterpieces beyond compare - perhaps this particular bandwagon is preparing to do a u-turn. Professor Mival is something of a woke weathercock, so if he's happy to point out Ferrenc's conservative and derivative profile, recycling gobbets of Mozart, Beethoven and Mendelssohn without a firm hand at the musical tiller, perhaps a reaction against the current brainwashing is in the wind.

Mind you, yesterday I was asked by ENO to report back on how I thought they were measuring up to climate change... "never mind the decline in production standards, just look at our solar panels!"

[Roger Webb]

If that is so, it's a scandalous position to take up, valorising social engineering above aesthetics, and art itself.

However, judging from William Mival's critical comments this morning (i.e. last Saturday afternoon) on Louise Farrenc - that darling of the network, whose mediocre symphonies have been held up as masterpieces beyond compare - perhaps this particular bandwagon is preparing to do a u-turn. Professor Mival is something of a woke weathercock, so if he's happy to point out Ferrenc's conservative and derivative profile, recycling gobbets of Mozart, Beethoven and Mendelssohn without a firm hand at the musical tiller, perhaps a reaction against the current brainwashing is in the wind.

Mind you, yesterday I was asked by ENO to report back on how I thought they were measuring up to climate change... "never mind the decline in production standards, just look at our solar panels!"

I didn't hear Mival's pronouncements on Louise Ferrenc, he's probably right. Point is really, there are half-a-hundred not particularly talented contemporaries of Farrenc that haven't been 'discovered' yet....many of them male. If you resurrected their 'immortal masterpieces' you'd find that they are equally deserving of the benign neglect that Farrenc is!

International Women's Day merely illustrates the point in spades. Among those who would hold their own in the company of any composers, male or female, is a lot of dross, brought in to make up the schedule. As each year comes and goes the noise of barrels being scraped increasingly drowns out the music.....until that bandwagon does a u-turn, as you say.

[MickyD]

I suppose this should go in the appropriate thread, but with an 11 year sentence handed out in 2015, the most he could hope for would be probation by now. Perhaps even the forgiveness of the classical music world has its limits, and this is one artist we have now seen the last of (to the relief of his victims).

Thank you for clarifying the situation. I confess I had forgotten there was a thread on the subject nine years ago...how time flies.

[Barbirollians]

If that is so, it's a scandalous position to take up, valorising social engineering above aesthetics, and art itself.

However, judging from William Mival's critical comments this morning (i.e. last Saturday afternoon) on Louise Farrenc - that darling of the network, whose mediocre symphonies have been held up as masterpieces beyond compare - perhaps this particular bandwagon is preparing to do a u-turn. Professor Mival is something of a woke weathercock, so if he's happy to point out Ferrenc's conservative and derivative profile, recycling gobbets of Mozart, Beethoven and Mendelssohn without a firm hand at the musical tiller, perhaps a reaction against the current brainwashing is in the wind.

Mind you, yesterday I was asked by ENO to report back on how I thought they were measuring up to climate change... "never mind the decline in production standards, just look at our solar panels!"

I don’t agree with Mival . Much of her chamber music is very fine as is her Third Symphony.

[Barbirollians]

When will the time come when female composers are thought of as just composers if they are selected by gender? This process has been around for so long perhaps we've become blind to it (well, not me!), I mean the selection of female composers to fill some notional quota - it's been an ambition of the BBC to have half the music played to be written by women composers. The consequence of this is we hear the same pieces by the same composers trotted out:- Doreen Carwithen, Mel Bonis, Lili Boulanger, Florence Price et al. Just take Doreen Carwithen (Mary Alwyn as she preferred), she is played more often than her neglected husband William Alwyn. Her small output not a patch on her husbands - his 5 symphonies should be played, but never are. His incomparable film music most obviously superior to Mary's slim output in the genre. My favourite works by Mary are the string quartets....but of course we never hear those. When Mary was CotW we were told '...some people are beginning to think that Doreen is a better composer than her husband'.....only those who haven't heard Williams music, I would suggest!

I remember looking through the Classic FM 'Hall of Fame' two or three years ago, of the 300 items selected, if I remember correctly, only one item was by a woman composer, and that was from a recent film score which would probably be dropped the following year. Now, it would be easy to say this is only Classic FM, those voting are not conversant with a wide enough range of music, but it's a startling contrast with the BBC aim, to play half of the music by women composers.

I studied Lili Boulanger's music when I came across the monograph by Léonie Rosenstiel, oh back in the 80s it must have been. She was little known then, but I set out to hear as much as I could, and managed to search out all the houses she lived in....as I do, particularly with all the French composers that I love. I hate to think of her being used as a quota filler!

Although it seems criticism of wokery and diversity targets are allowed on this forum not criticism of what strikes me as sexist . I fear this post entirely misses the point . Women composers throughout the ages have had very limited opportunities either to write music or have it heard - initiatives such as playing music by female composers just enables music to be heard that otherwise is not and has not been heard . It is hardly a cause of the neglect of Alwyn’s music that Carwithen’s music is occasionally played .

[smittims]

Well yes, Barbirollians, but much of what you say applies to many neglected male composers who aren't given special treatment . They too had limited opportunities to write music or to get it heard. Of course in most cases they and their music were probably nothing special, though there's always the possibility that a real genius existed who was too shy or misanthropic to ingratiate himself with concert promoters and never got that break. And it's worth digging them out and giving them a try sometimes. But when this has been done and we can hear that they were just an 'also-ran' then it's time to put them back on the shelf. Otherwise it becomes clear that their music is still being broadcast for other reasons than its intrinsic quality as music.

[Roger Webb]

Although it seems criticism of wokery and diversity targets are allowed on this forum not criticism of what strikes me as sexist . I fear this post entirely misses the point . Women composers throughout the ages have had very limited opportunities either to write music or have it heard - initiatives such as playing music by female composers just enables music to be heard that otherwise is not and has not been heard . It is hardly a cause of the neglect of Alwyn’s music that Carwithen’s music is occasionally played .

My criticism was of the BBC selecting a sizable chunk of what they play by gender - a whole day, every year where men are excluded for example. You seem to be saying this very criticism is sexist in itself! When most rational people would think that to exclude one gender from a whole day's schedule is certainly 'sexist'!

Carwithen's music is played almost daily, not 'occasionally'....or was before I gave up listening to those programmes where it is likely to be played. Alwyn's almost never, the difference is striking...but I agree that the former is not the cause of the latter!!

[LMcD]

Well yes, Barbirollians, but much of what you say applies to many neglected male composers who aren't given special treatment . They too had limited opportunities to write music or to get it heard. Of course in most cases they and their music were probably nothing special, though there's always the possibility that a real genius existed who was too shy or misanthropic to ingratiate himself with concert promoters and never got that break. And it's worth digging them out and giving them a try sometimes. But when this has been done and we can hear that they were just an 'also-ran' then it's time to put them back on the shelf. Otherwise it becomes clear that their music is still being broadcast for other reasons than its intrinsic quality as music.

It so happens that as I read this post I'm listening to part of Gorecki's 3rd symphony, a recording of which attracted much interest and sold many copies in the early 1990s, but I think I agree with Wikipedia that 'this success has not generated similar interest in Gorecki's other works'. Young McKinney didn't mention the part that Classic FM may well have played in that success.

[Roger Webb]

Well yes, Barbirollians, but much of what you say applies to many neglected male composers who aren't given special treatment .[/I].

I actually suggested to the previous Radio 3 controller that it might be more productive to have a 'neglected composer' day instead of the rather limiting women composer one.
He replied that they were thinking of abandoning the women's day, as it was no longer necessary, women composers being adequately represented day-to-day.

I've always had a soft spot for out of the way composers (of both genders Barbirollians!) and my recorded music collection reflects this.

Attending a concert at the lovely Hellens Manor this afternoon, part of the festival we have every year, to hear Chausson's Concert for piano, violin and str qt. What interests me is that there is a selection of music by his friends, but not pre-announced. At a previous Hellens concert we had Chausson's Piano Qt Op.30...now there's a neglected masterpiece!

[french frank]

Request received that the discussion returns to the current BaL work, please. Nothing further here either about female composers or about male gross moral turpitude.