BaL 13.04.24 - Brahms: Symphony 3

[Barbirollians]

Thanks so much - I didn’t know it had appeared on Radio Classics. Must find a copy.

Its here

https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005Q5LM/musicwebuk

[smittims]

At the risk of stretching the off-topic spell, you remind me that I may still have a reel-to-reel tape of the premiere of Death in Venice, which includes one or two passages Britten cut before the Decca recording was made. One in particular I recall beagan 'I have always kept a close watch over my development as a writer; over my behaviour as a man'.

[oliver sudden]

At the risk of stretching the off-topic spell, you remind me that I may still have a reel-to-reel tape of the premiere of Death in Venice, which includes one or two passages Britten cut before the Decca recording was made. One in particular I recall beagan 'I have always kept a close watch over my development as a writer; over my behaviour as a man'.

If you can’t lay your hands on the tape after all, that recording or one very like it can be had for a derisory sum from Opera Depot: https://operadepot.com/products/brit...bowman-bedford

I’ve always been frustrated by that cut since it seems to be such an important passage in terms of establishing not only what the opera is about but how it ‘functions’. Maybe it was too explicit for Britten in that way, a bit like school essays that start ‘in this essay, I shall show…’. But at least he left the option open for future performers.

The competitive ‘games’ on the beach are also longer in the off-air recording, although there the score doesn’t give any alternatives.

Um, yes, Brahms. Britten didn’t really care for Brahms did he? If I remember right he said he used to play through all Brahms’s piano music from time to time just to make sure it really was as bad as he remembered it.

(edit: oh and there’s the Schütz connection… Brahms was a big fan and the recitatives in Death in Venice are very much inspired by those in Schütz’ Passions which Pears had performed and which similarly are noteheads without rhythms.)

[Gargoyle]

I was at that concert – an amazing programme (Brahms, Chausson, Debussy). It's a shame the BBC Legends release didn't include the whole of Dame Janet's Chausson!

They added just a part of it as a filler. The whole work is on another BBC Legends disc which I also have. Nice singing in parts from Baker, but in my opinion, there are much better performances of the Chausson available

[Ein Heldenleben]

Is this a Brahms 3 thread or a Chausson and Brahms- bashing thread ? If this goes on I’ll shall have no alternative other than to cut and paste a very interesting technical analysis of the first movements tonal and harmonic structure.

[Pulcinella]

Is this a Brahms 3 thread or a Chausson and Brahms- bashing thread ? If this goes on I’ll shall have no alternative other than to cut and paste a very interesting technical analysis of the first movements tonal and harmonic structure.

Please do, anyway.
Especially if it throws light (or comments) on the rationale of the first movement exposition repeat!

Several threads get hijacked along the way (the Handel Op 6 did, iirc), and in this case I'm guilty, but my justification here is that we are at least providing information for our esteemed reviewer! And yes, that could have been in a PM, but this way everyone else gets to see that the information has been supplied.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Indeed it does throw light on that very question at 3.03 to be precise. Brahms not surprisingly is beloved by musical academics worldwide. There are only 10,000 words permitted so I’ve divided the bit up to the development in two and given the link for those who want more

http://www.kellydeanhansen.com/opus90.html

SYMPHONY NO. 3 in F MAJOR, OP. 90
Recording: Berlin Philharmonic, conducted by Claudio Abbado [DG 435 683-2]
Published 1884. Dedicated to “his dearly beloved” Hans von Bülow “in true friendship” January 8, 1890.

IMSLP WORK PAGE
ONLINE SCORE FROM IMSLP (First Edition from Brahms-Institut Lübeck)
ONLINE SCORE FROM IMSLP (from Breitkopf & Härtel Sämtliche Werke)

---

1^st Movement: Allegro con brio (Sonata-Allegro form). F MAJOR, 6/4 time, with two passages (of 13 and 9 measures) in 9/4 time.
EXPOSITION
0:00 [m. 1]--Theme 1. The F--A-flat--F figure, the most important motto of the symphony, is immediately blasted out in full measures from the woodwinds and high brass. The chord under F is major, and under A-flat, it is a dissonant “diminished seventh.” As these instruments reach up to the top F, the theme proper begins in the violins. It consists of two sweeping descents that suggest 3/2 as much as 6/4. It is marked passionato, played over pulsing cellos and syncopated violas. The “motto instruments” drop out while trombones and timpani enter in support of the strings. The lowest instruments again outline the F--A-flat--F figure. The second downward sweep moves to minor as the top F is underpinned by a chord on D-flat.
0:13 [m. 7]--Moving quickly back to major, the violins continue, introducing a four-note rising figure that propels the music upward. A new, extremely important motive is heard in clarinets, bassoons, and horns. It resembles the F--A-flat--F motto, but adds a leap down to a fourth note, the natural version of the middle note. It is first played on C--E-flat--C--E-natural, but a second statement that adds flutes, oboes, and trumpets brings it “home” to F--A-flat--F--A-natural as the violins use the three-note figure to reach higher.
0:22 [m. 11]--Despite the major-minor mixture, the presentation thus far has been extremely exciting and heroic. Now the violins, still using rhythms from the previous passage, plunge downward against syncopated chords from the lower strings and the winds. These include a version of the “motto” starting on B-flat, but with the downward leap moving to E, the “leading tone” in F major. The woodwinds answer with their own descent on F--A, helping the violins reach a full F-major cadence. This is reiterated at a lower level emphasizing the third of the chord, A. The passionate intensity rapidly settles down.
0:32 [m. 15]--Transition. With syncopation in second violins and violas, the flutes and clarinets, supported by bassoons and string basses, pipe out three F’s. The first violins and cellos, supported by horns, answer with repeated A’s that then rise. The pattern is repeated up in sequence, then the first violins continue with a rising line in dotted rhythm culminating in a rapid turn and descent. After a wind chord on the downbeat, the first violins play a rising arpeggio in triplets. This sets up a second such chord and arpeggio that lead to another F-major cadence punctuated by trombones, played over the “motto” beginning on A in the bass.
0:47 [m. 21]--At the cadence, the woodwinds and high brass, along with first violins, again play the harmonized F--A-flat--F motto, punctuated by triplet arpeggios in cellos and second violins against continuously pulsating violas. The A-flat now underpins a natural motion of harmony based on that note toward the key of D-flat major.
0:51 [m. 23]--The transition passage from 0:32 [m. 15] is stated in the key of D-flat major. Now the first violins play the leading repeated notes and the woodwinds take the actual melodic material with the rising line. The second violins and violas subtly abandon their syncopation, with the cellos and basses becoming less active. The entire statement is much quieter than the one in F major. The rapid turn and descent are magically taken by the clarinet in this statement, marked dolce. The sequence of arpeggios is now in “straight” rhythm instead of triplets, and it is passed from cellos to violas to first violins. They arrive at a full cadence on D-flat.
1:07 [m. 29]--In a very artful key change (“enharmonic modulation”), Brahms moves from D-flat to the “dominant” harmony in A major. It is done over undulating violins and violas with the “motto” in the high woodwinds. It begins on D-flat, but it is re-spelled as C-sharp, then moves to E. At the same time, the A-flat in the undulations is re-spelled as G-sharp, the third of the “dominant” chord on E (which leads to the goal, A major). Against the first note of the “motto,” there is a rising bassoon arpeggio in D-flat, and this is then taken by a flute on the E “dominant” chord, leading into the new key.
1:12 [m. 31]--The three-sharp key signature for A major indicates an arrival on that key, which coincides with the third note of the “motto” on the high C-sharp. A variant of the transitional passage follows, with the strings playing chords in mild syncopation with active violas, followed by rising arpeggios with minor-key inflections in the woodwinds. The string chords are stated at a lower level, with a plunging bass, then the woodwind arpeggio is slowed down to lead into the second theme. Bassoon and clarinet lead the flute.
1:26 [m. 36]--Theme 2 (A major). The time signature changes to a very supple 9/4. After the low strings play a plucked downbeat, a solo clarinet presents the smooth, but slippery melody, accompanied by a lovely bassoon counterpoint. Both instruments are marked mezza voce and grazioso. The first three bars begin similarly, but with subtle changes. The first measure begins off the beat. The downbeat is filled in the second measure, and the clarinet melody is embellished at the end. The quieter third measure begins with a longer note. The fourth measure becomes active and leads to a gentle cadence. Plucked low strings and a chirping flute accompany throughout, not moving off the notes A and E.
1:42 [m. 40]--The theme is now stated with full instrumentation. The melody is taken by oboe and violas (both marked mezza voceand grazioso, parallel to the clarinet statement). The clarinet now joins the bassoon on a more active counterpoint. The “chirping” interjections previously played by the flute are now in the first violins. The flute, entering with an embellishment, takes over for the oboe four beats into the third measure. Its embellishment is echoed by the clarinet, which briefly breaks from the bassoon. The violas continue to double the melody throughout. The cadence is marked by a new sixteenth-note “hiccup” in the melody.
1:57 [m. 44]--The theme is now given an cheerful answering phrase led by the woodwinds. Like the main phrase, it begins off the beat. It makes a shift to C-sharp major. The oboe takes over with a downward-winding line like the embellishments in the main phrase. The pattern is immediately repeated a step lower, in B major, with the clarinet taking the downward-winding line. Then flutes and oboes, alternating with clarinets and bassoons, play four groups of two chords leading back to A major, cutting off with a highly expectant, unresolved harmony. The entire passage is accompanied and punctuated by plucked strings.
2:08 [m. 47]--The strings alone, without basses, play a version of Theme 2 that is an approximate inversion, with the overall direction changed to a descent. This leads to a cadence in A that is interrupted by the following transition.
2:17 [m. 49]--Transition to Closing Material. The meter changes back to 6/4 at this point, and a version of the motto beginning on A is played by the principal oboe over a soft bassoon and string background. This version of the motto, however, leaps down not to the raised third, but to the “leading tone” of the “dominant” key. Following this motto statement, the flute, then clarinet, then bassoon play a fast descending arpeggio that begins on the last beat of the measure (beat 6) or the third beat, obscuring the meter. Against the bassoon arpeggio, the oboe plays a rising figure. The arpeggio is passed to the clarinet a second time. Rising arpeggios in the cellos and second bassoon support the metric displacement, as do plucked upper strings.
2:26 [m. 53]--The displacement, with groups beginning on the last beat of the measure, continues. Flutes and oboes take up the slower rising arpeggios, while both clarinets and both bassoons continue to pass the faster descending ones. The rising arpeggios are then passed back to low strings while the flutes and oboes play chords emphasizing the displaced meter.
2:33 [m. 56]--Flutes and clarinets now play the descending arpeggios together, joined after a measure by bassoons. At the point where the bassoons join, the arpeggios are shortened from three beats to two beats, creating an implied 3/2 within the already displaced 6/4. An urgent rising figure in the violins confirms this implied 3/2. At the same time, there is a distinct change from major to minor and a buildup in volume. After two of these displaced implied 3/2 groups, an “extra” beat is added at the end to restore the downbeat where it belongs.
2:40 [m. 59]--At the climax, with the restored meter, the violins and violas rapidly pass down a hammered descending third, which changes in the second measure to a descending second. Both measures are punctuated by chords on the downbeats. In the last beat of the second measure, with the beginning of the closing theme, the meter is disrupted yet again.

[Ein Heldenleben]

part two


2:45 [m. 61]--Closing Theme (A minor). Flutes, bassoons, and violins play the melancholy, passionate melody, which is in groups of three beats beginning on beat 6 and beat 3, again displacing the meter a beat ahead of the bar line. Against them, clarinet and horns play rapidly rising and falling statements of the “motto” beginning on A. The motto is also suggested in the arpeggios of the melody itself. Low strings play slower arpeggios that support the displaced meter. After two measures, the melody breaks into descending arpeggios, and then, again beginning on beat 6, the violins begin a sweeping rising scale in triplets that becomes fully chromatic. The rhythmic complexity is helped by a held chord on the downbeat.
2:54 [m. 65]--All woodwinds in unison now play the closing theme, which still begins on the last beat of the measure. Now the strings add a new and powerful counterpoint with strong, leaping arpeggios, heavily influenced by the motto, played in contrary motion between violins and cellos. This counterpoint even further emphasizes the displaced meter. As before, the theme breaks into descending arpeggios, and the sweeping rising scale in triplets is now played by the woodwinds. This time, however, it is repeated by the violins and violas. Each group plays the held chord against the other.
3:05 [m. 70]--The violins play a descending arpeggio that “fills in” the motto. It begins with a held note across the bar line. The cellos and basses play in contrary motion against it. The winds support it with chords. The next measure (m. 71a) is the first measure of the first ending. In it, the arpeggio begins a third higher, but the second half of it eliminates an expected held note and adds an extra note to (finally) restore the meter. The second measure of the first ending (m. 72a) consists of a rising third, A to C in the strings, which implies the “motto.” But instead of rising to a higher A, the repeat of the exposition begins on F, thus emphasizing the important relationship between F and A (or A-flat). This element is lost if the exposition repeat is not taken.
EXPOSITION REPEATED

[Pulcinella]

Thanks: that will take some reading and digestion.

[Gargoyle]

Funny you should mention Svetlanov as I have a complete Brahms cycle from him. It's with the USSR State Symphony Orchestra and is included in the boxed set 'The Art of Yevgeny Svetlanov' on the Scribendum label. I have to confess that I've never played the Brahms from that box (there's some Beethoven and a Bruckner 8, too!) but given your highlighting maybe I should give them a go, despite the Soviet sonics likely being unwelcome in this repertoire.

An interesting collection, I don’t know it. I should think the Brahms is worth a listen!

[Barbirollians]

The Abbado is an exceptionally fine taut performance of the Third Symphony. I see not only did it win the Gramophone Collection but was also the winner when last in BAL in 2008.Listening to the finale again it’s damn exciting just as a whole my heart warms more to the Bruno Walter.

[richardfinegold]

Didn’t Manze do the Brahms Symphonies with a Danish Period Orchestra? Or did they use modern instruments?

To answer my own question Manze led the Helsingborg SO of Sweden. The notes, attributed to Manze,ofthe set claim it is “post-h.i.p., in that many of performance decisions have been taken with a background awareness of appropriate historical evidence and practice but the instruments used are conventional (i.e. modern’ rather than period).”
So is a modern instrument, small orchestra (50 players) orchestra led by a performer in 2010 who up to that time made a name as an H.I.P. practitioner version count as HIP? And how many angels can tango on the head of a pin?

[oliver sudden]

I don’t think there are any official criteria for HIPness, are there? As long as there are important interpretative decisions being made according to known historical criteria…

Although that would surely make ‘post-HIP’ a bit of a nonsensical designation, so maybe I’ve got the wrong end of the stick.

[Barbirollians]

Post HIPP as i understand it means HIPP influenced but on modern instruments - a notorious example might be Norrington's Mahler 9 .

[oliver sudden]

I had thought that the whole point of the HIP(P) designation was to get away from the rigidity of the ‘on historical instruments’ thingy and have a term that could apply for performances observing historical performance practice without necessarily using historical hardware. But if HIP(P) implies historical hardware after all then what’s the point of the term? (scratches head)