BaL 6.04.24 - Vaughan Williams: A Sea Symphony

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Didn't seem correct to me - combining London (or other major) symphonic choirs seems to work well enough - I haven't noticed the BBC Singers listed as participants - even, for example, in the 50th anniversary of the BBC SO concert in the RAH in November 1980 - a high profile event with invited guests - politicians etc.

Looking at the proms archive, the BBC Singers were listed in the 1975 performance but not in eight others between 1986 and 2018. Not in the Gothic Symphony in 2011. Not in 6 of the 9 War Requiem performances (but were in the 1976, 1964, 1963).
Given the size of two choruses with memberships exceeding 100, maybe it would seem overkill and an extra expense to use up their contracted hours for such a large work, already assigned to capable forces.

The BBC Singers do sing in the Last Night - but then its a representational concert, televised far and wide, for The BBC Proms.

I agree, Sparrow, and I think we can both speak from first-hand experience.

I've done several Mahler 8s in London with BBCSC and LPC, collaborating with other non-pro outfits, and I don't actually remember the Singers being involved in any of these - or come to think of it in certain other large choral works in that time such as Verdi Req, War Requiem or Grande Messe des Morts. (Another one has since occurred to me: the Proms premiere of Hymnus Paradisi.)

So "sometimes stiffened by the Singers" (or other pro outfits) would be more accurate than "often", at least for SATB works. BBCSC and Singers combinations in recent years come to mind for TB heavy lifting, such as Oedipus Rex, Gurrelieder and Götterdämmerung, and the latter at RFH later this month will be a collaboration between LPC and London Voices.

The BBC Singers have not been omnipresent for the LNOP but it has in recent years been a bit of a shop window for them.

[edashtav]

I accept the analyses by Cockny Sparrow and EnemyoftheStoat: sometimes, rather than often (stiffened by the BBC Singers) would have been better.

[seabright]

Curious that a non-British performance was given the No. 1 choice. However, I'm particularly interested in non-British performances of English music and inevitably, YouTube is pretty much the only place one can hear them. I know some people are adverse to YouTube but here are a few "Sea Symphony" performances from abroad anyway! ...

South West German Radio Orchestra & Chorus, Stuttgart, conductor Dennis Russell Davies ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w4hHS5Ys2U&t=32s

Colorado State Symphony Orchestra & Chorus, conductor Wes Kenny ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T1g7zBAO9k&t=154s

Stanford Symphony Orchestra & Chorus, California, conductor Stephen Sano ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAcWxNMaMVQ

Lamont Symphony Orchestra & Choirs, University of Denver, Colorado, conductor Dr. Catherine Sailer ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APAZOeOGiH0&t=1030s

Oak Ridge Symphony Orchestra & Chorus, Tennessee, conductor John Welsh ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQrf9y0LUBY

Academy Orchestra Mozarteum University & Choirs, Salzburg Cathedral, conductor Jorn Andresen ... The RVW is preceded by another choral work and comes in at the 19-minute mark. This was its Austrian premiere in 2023 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfLCjPtk7sA

There are some other non-British performances but these have been uploaded in their separate movements, not in complete videos. I've not provided the link to a French performance given by the Sorbonne University Orchestra and Choir, as I fear it was all a bit too much for them, sorry to say!

[smittims]

Goodness, what energy! Thanks for the work you've put into that.

An american recording has been chosen in the past. And it's significant that several of RVW's works had their first recording in the States: sixth symphony, Dona Nobis Pacem, Sancta Civitas, Five Tudor Portraits and the piano concerto , maybe more.

[neiltingley]

The BBC MM version (Volume 12, Number 12) is with Joan Rodgers, Simon Keenlyside, Philharmonia Chorus, BBC Symphony Chorus, BBC SO, under Leonard Slatkin, from a performance at the RAH on 10 September 2001.
The liner notes also credit Trinity College of Music Chamber Choir (off-stage conductor Stephen Jackson); I'm not sure what their role is.

Looks like Slatkin's commercially released recording (indeed the full set of symphonies) is nla.

Available on Qobuz and Tidal. A few are missing on Qobuz. I asked them to add them.

[Nick Armstrong]

Yep, enjoyed this, but I always enjoy the DON, and his approach does it for me.
Lots learned, lots to think about…

What I really like about him is the lack of insubstantive waffle, and everything he says is substantive and makes a point.

Agreed - just listened (sans verre de vin, malheureusement ).

Plus he manages to slip in a good relevant pun or two (“pick a chord, any chord” ), and an idiosyncratic take such as the reference to RVW’s straight-strung ‘Honeysuckle’ Broadwood upright piano.

Like others here, Haitink has been the version returned to again and again over the years so it was surprising to hear it brushed off.

Not sure I can take the German chorus in the winner (“invisibill’”…)… but one or two other versions featured I didn’t know and shall investigate

[edashtav]

Not sure I can take the German chorus in the winner (“invisibill’”…)… but one or two other versions featured I didn’t know and shall investigate

One of the advantages of 'foreign' versions is unity of pronunciation: often created through pronunciation coaching . Many home grown choirs singing in their native language are less clear because of variations of pronunciation within the large group of singers on each part. Their blend can be great but their articulation sounds muddy.

Not always true: I reckon the tenors on Boult's earlier recording are few in number and their clear pronunciation is very much that of the King's English of their time. One of their entries sounds archaic
to my ears in 2024, and evokes for me a phalanx of Foreign Office chaps in suits and bowlers marching across 'their sea' : the river Thames, practising RVW whilst maintaining choral discipline through the click of their brollies on the pavement of Westminster Bridge.

[oliver sudden]

I don't know whether Elgar's 1st symphony has been the subject of BaL since 2007, but on that occasion the 'winner' was also a live recording by a German orchestra - the Staatskapelle Dresden under Colin Davis.

That Elgar 1 is truly splendid. A magnificent example of the suitability of the German orchestral palette for Elgar, and a searing performance. I wouldn’t always want to hear it that way but for quite a while after I got to know it I indeed didn’t want to hear it any other way, if that makes sense.

English is generally not too difficult for continental European singers to make a decent fist of—there are just a few words which judging from how I hear them sung over here seem to be particularly challenging. Unfortunately two of them are ‘and’ and ‘the’.

[Maclintick]

I don't know whether Elgar's 1st symphony has been the subject of BaL since 2007, but on that occasion the 'winner' was also a live recording by a German orchestra - the Staatskapelle Dresden under Colin Davis.

I have the Staatskapelle Berlin/Barenboim CDs of the Elgar symphonies - both very fine. German orchestras are naturally attuned to the Elgarian sound world, since EA’s musical language & antecedents are Beethoven, Brahms & Wagner. The German maestro Hans Richter gave the première of the 1st symphony with the Hallé (founded by a German) & the work then received further performances under Julius Buths in Düsseldorf.

[oliver sudden]

I listened to the Haitink (as closely as I could with twin toddlers playing about), and, crikey. But I must confess nothing particularly Daphnis and Chloe-ish struck my ear. What did I miss?

The only bit where I did think VW had helped himself to something was the end of the Scherzo, which is a fairly blatant lift from the end of the Gloria of the Missa Solemnis...

[Maclintick]

I listened to the Haitink (as closely as I could with twin toddlers playing about), and, crikey. But I must confess nothing particularly Daphnis and Chloe-ish struck my ear. What did I miss?
The only bit where I did think VW had helped himself to something was the end of the Scherzo, which is a fairly blatant lift from the end of the Gloria of the Missa Solemnis...

I have often thought I detected more-than-a-whiff of Jeux de Vagues in RVW's scherzo The Waves. Debussy conducted the UK première of La Mer in front of an enthusiastic audience at the Queen's Hall in 1908, prompting the composer's remark that his work was more popular in London than Paris, & it's possible RVW was in attendance, though as has been mentioned in this thread he'd sketched out the Sea Symphony over several years previously, which would seem to rule out any direct influence from La Mer.

[Master Jacques]

I have often thought I detected more-than-a-whiff of Jeux de Vagues in RVW's scherzo The Waves. Debussy conducted the UK première of La Mer in front of an enthusiastic audience at the Queen's Hall in 1908, prompting the composer's remark that his work was more popular in London than Paris, & it's possible RVW was in attendance, though as has been mentioned in this thread he'd sketched out the Sea Symphony over several years previously, which would seem to rule out any direct influence from La Mer.

Mmm, I wonder. RVW didn't need to have been "cribbing" (his own word, of course) from Jeux de vagues, as both were perhaps subconsciously channeling Rimsky Korsakov - a potent influence on both composers, as also here with Holst and Bax - as they strove to lift their fragile barques free of the prevailing Teutonic currents. The "barrel at sea" music from Tsar Saltan comes to mind as an indirect source for both of them, rather than anything in Scheherazade. Make no mistake, these composers all knew their Rimsky very well, a composer we're just beginning to appreciate for ourselves, as his big operas get into the international repertoire.

[Barbirollians]

Listened to this last night . Found myself to be reminded why I just do not get this work albeit the Previn extracts just about made me likely to look his recording out . For all his effusive analysis I did not really understand his enthusiasm for Arnam - sounded rather stiff albeit splendidly trained to me.

[seabright]

I provided the links to some YouTube non-British performances of the "Sea Symphony" (above) but unless I missed it somewhere, there used to be a thread devoted to "Interesting YouTube performances" which I can't seem to find. Has it been removed? ... I know this is a Radio 3 Forum but there's an awful lot of BBC TV and Radio 3 items on YouTube from the past and that's the only place anyone can see or hear them these days. Maybe I haven't got to grips with the revised Forum system!

[Pulcinella]

I provided the links to some YouTube non-British performances of the "Sea Symphony" (above) but unless I missed it somewhere, there used to be a thread devoted to "Interesting YouTube performances" which I can't seem to find. Has it been removed? ... I know this is a Radio 3 Forum but there's an awful lot of BBC TV and Radio 3 items on YouTube from the past and that's the only place anyone can see or hear them these days. Maybe I haven't got to grips with the revised Forum system!

This one?

https://www.for3.org/forums/forum/classical-forum/talking-about-music/5205-youtube-the-thread-for-interesting-video-links

We also have the YouTube performances with score thread:

https://www.for3.org/forums/forum/classical-forum/talking-about-music/17018-youtube-videos-with-score