BaL 16.03.24 - Handel: Concerti grossi Op 6

[AuntDaisy]

I think a lot of listeners and CD buyers don't realise how much of HIPP is conjecture: very sincere, well-researced honest conjecture though it be. I'm sure if we went back in a time machine and sat in on an actual Handel performance we'd heve some surprises.

So would poor Handel! Imagine some great blue box arriving, wheezing like a grampus.

[Master Jacques]

I think a lot of listeners and CD buyers don't realise how much of HIPP is conjecture: very sincere, well-researced honest conjecture though it be. I'm sure if we went back in a time machine and sat in on an actual Handel performance we'd heve some surprises.

I don't think we would: it's not as if the early 18th c. was some sort of dark age - quite the reverse. We've got tons of written material, to let us know exactly who Handel's singers and players were, how they performed, how their instruments looked and functioned, the precise configurations of his concert halls and in many cases exactly who bought tickets. Documentation is not the problem here. Just because we don't have an aural recording of what his concerti sounded like in those oratorio performances does not mean that we'd be much surprised by what we heard.

I can think of better uses for your time machine. I'd plump for Shakespeare's Globe, first and foremost!

[vinteuil]

I don't think we would: it's not as if the early 18th c. was some sort of dark age - quite the reverse. We've got tons of written material, to let us know exactly who Handel's singers and players were, how they performed, how their instruments looked and functioned, the precise configurations of his concert halls and in many cases exactly who bought tickets. Documentation is not the problem here. Just because we don't have an aural recording of what his concerti sounded like in those oratorio performances does not mean that we'd be much surprised by what we heard.

... I'm always in favour of an historically informed approach rather than an historically uninformed or historically misinformed approach.

As M Jacques indicates, we really do know quite a lot now as to how things were done : it's not just 'idle speculation'.

Yes, musically Stowkowski or Glenn Gould give us useful insights in to Bach &c. But I prefer attempts to get closer to what a composer might have expected.

[RobP]

... I'm always in favour of an historically informed approach rather than an historically uninformed or historically misinformed approach.

As M Jacques indicates, we really do know quite a lot now as to how things were done : it's not just 'idle speculation'.

Yes, musically Stowkowski or Glenn Gould give us useful insights in to Bach &c. But I prefer attempts to get closer to what a composer might have expected.

That's fine so long as you accept that for many people interpretive insight is more important. Within the HIPP field I prefer Antonini to Manze in Op.6 because he is far more volatil. But I also love Scherchen who is wonderfully inventive. The two approaches are not incompatible.

When it comes to Beethoven and after I and thousands of others have little interest in HIPP. But this isn't a problem given that I can listen to the Toscanini 1939 cycle (Pristine) etc.. Or if you want something different there is Furtwangler, Klemperer et al.

The problem comes when HIPP is presented as the holy grail of interpretation, which it is not, it is simply an option

[vinteuil]

When it comes to Beethoven and after I and thousands of others have little interest in HIPP.

... I find it sad that you might wilfully deprive yourself of the insights provided by Brautigam, Komen, Badura Skoda, Schoonderwoerd, Norrington, Harnoncourt, van Immerseel, Hogwood, Krivine and others

.

[RobP]

... I find it sad that you might wilfully deprive yourself of the insights provided by Brautigam, Komen, Badura Skoda, Schoonderwoerd, Norrington, Harnoncourt, van Immerseel, Hogwood, Krivine and others

.

I have around a dozen HIPP cycles of the Beethoven Symphonies and two the Sonatas. I find them interesting, but no more as - and I am sure to some this tantamount to heresy - I want a full symphony orchestra with vibrato in Beethoven and the sound of a fortepiano is to my ears totally unacceptable.

You use the word 'sad'. At no point did I say I had not listened to HIPP Beethoven, I simply said I was not interested in it. The two are not the same. However, while I am sure you have listened to Toscanini, C Kleiber, Szell et al in the Symphonies and Schnabel, Serkin, Solomon, Gilels etc etc in the Sonatas. If you have not I would recommend that you do, hopefully there will some performances that you enjoy.

I would not use such a patronising, dismissive word as sad.

[vinteuil]

When it comes to Beethoven and after I and thousands of others have little interest in HIPP. / ... / At no point did I say I had not listened to HIPP Beethoven, I simply said I was not interested in it.

some might read that as dismissive and patronising

I want a full symphony orchestra with vibrato in Beethoven and the sound of a fortepiano is to my ears totally unacceptable.

... at the risk of being found 'dismissive and patronising' - that I do find very sad!
.

[Ein Heldenleben]

... at the risk of being found 'dismissive and patronising' - that I find very sad!
.

why is it any sadder than finding the sound of a modern Steinway unacceptable? I went to a recent solo recital performed on a modern Fazioli at the Wigmore Hall and parts of the sound were not just unacceptable but excruciatingly and inauthentically loud. The problem I have with fortepianos is that sometimes the strings don’t sound in tune with each other . But then I have that problem with a lot of violinists , woodwind players and even the sound of a piano with an orchestra.

[RobP]

some might read that as dismissive and patronising



... at the risk of being found 'dismissive and patronising' - that I do find very sad!
.

Why do you find it sad? I don't find it sad that you enjoy fortepianos. Great, glad you do, but I don't, why is that a problem?

[RobP]

why is it any sadder than finding the sound of a modern Steinway unacceptable? I went to a recent solo recital performed on a modern Fazioli at the Wigmore Hall and parts of the sound were not just unacceptable but excruciatingly and inauthentically loud. The problem I have with fortepianos is that sometimes the strings don’t sound in tune with each other . But then I have that problem with a lot of violinists , woodwind players and even the sound of a piano with an orchestra.

Elizabeth Leonskjaya made a two SACDs for MDG using a magnificent 1901 Steinway D and OUR Recordings have just released an album of Cello Sonatas and other pieces from around WW1 by women composers, using a 1913 Bechstein. Both produce a gorgeous sound which for me puts modern made in China Steinways to shame. But these are still recognisably full-range modern concert grands.

I've heard a couple of Fazioli's at the Wigmore and I loved the sound. Can I ask who was playing?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Elizabeth Leonskjaya made a two SACDs for MDG using a magnificent 1901 Steinway D and OUR Recordings have just released an album of Cello Sonatas and other pieces from around WW1 by women composers, using a 1913 Bechstein. Both produce a gorgeous sound which for me puts modern made in China Steinways to shame. But these are still recognisably full-range modern concert grands.

I've heard a couple of Fazioli's at the Wigmore and I loved the sound. Can I ask who was playing?

Boris Giltburg who was hitting the keys too hard …

[RobP]

Boris Giltburg who was hitting the keys too hard …

Yes, subtlety has never been his strong point!!

[RobP]

Boris Giltburg who was hitting the keys too hard …

Would be interesting to know what he said to the piano technician

[RobP]

Boris Giltburg who was hitting the keys too hard …

Just listened to the first half of the Chopin Preludes on YouTube and even allowing for the poor sound quality the piano sound is pretty ropey. The midrange in particular is harsh. Never heard a Fazioli sound like this at the Wigmore or elsewhere.

[HighlandDougie]

Both produce a gorgeous sound which for me puts modern made in China Steinways to shame. But these are still recognisably full-range modern concert grands.

Hmm, you've lost me. Is it the, "made in China Steinways", which are still recognisably full-range modern concert grands or the earlier examples? No doubt the latter but I'm not sure that I don't find the reference to "Made in China" to be just a touch gratuitous. Whatever one's views on the PRC (mine are pretty dim), some very fine HiFi gear comes from the country - so I'm not sure why concert grands should be any different in terms of their quality??