BaL 16.03.24 - Handel: Concerti grossi Op 6

[smittims]

I hadn't listened to a full BaL for many years; I did enjoy this one but with one reservation.

I accept that with limited time he had to concentrate on the recordings most people would be considering in choosing one version . But by ignoring the first half of the recorded history of these concertos he was telling only half a story. Maybe one day someone who chose a HIPP version will chance to hear a bit of Menuhin, Marriner or Boyd Neel and get a hint of what they show of Handelian interpretation. Although I enjoy Pinnock and Antonini (and Hogwood, who was oddly unmentioned) I find the earlier recordings more satisfying, and I would encourage anyone looking to find out what this music has below the surface, to hear some of them. .

[Gargoyle]

I haven’t added a set of the Op 6 to my collection for many years. I get most pleasure listening to Iona Brown, ASMF and Neville Marriner, ASMF. When I fancy a different take, I turn to Antonini, IGA. I bought the Manze set a couple decades ago, but it doesn’t do much for me. The only other set I have is the Karajan, which I find illuminating.

[MickyD]

Ah well, the winner has been sitting in my library for quarter of a century.

I find it quite frightening how quickly time passes - I think of this set as something of a newcomer!

I thought it odd that the Handel and Haydn Society set with Hogwood wasn't considered, it has always been highly thought of by many.

[RobP]

The Forck set is rhythmically alive and beautifully played, but Antonini is so alive and vibrant and his slow movements more relaxed that he's my first choice.

[vinteuil]

I liked the sound of the Forck a lot. I see that amazon.it have the three-disc set including op 3 at an attractive price -

https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B08SVCCD37

.

[RobP]

I hadn't listened to a full BaL for many years; I did enjoy this one but with one reservation.

I accept that with limited time he had to concentrate on the recordings most people would be considering in choosing one version . But by ignoring the first half of the recorded history of these concertos he was telling only half a story. Maybe one day someone who chose a HIPP version will chance to hear a bit of Menuhin, Marriner or Boyd Neel and get a hint of what they show of Handelian interpretation. Although I enjoy Pinnock and Antonini (and Hogwood, who was oddly unmentioned) I find the earlier recordings more satisfying, and I would encourage anyone looking to find out what this music has below the surface, to hear some of them. .

The Marriner is excellent.

[RobP]

I liked the sound of the Forck a lot. I see that amazon.it have the three-disc set including op 3 at an attractive price -

https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B08SVCCD37

.

Yes, despite recording in a church the recording managed to tame the reverberation and it is available in formats up to and including DSD51, which gives the sound extra bloom and presence.

[Pulcinella]

The Marriner is excellent.

Must check them out; I have his Op 3 set and enjoy them.
I thought it a little odd to mention the ASMF/Brown set only to dismiss it, and not even mention the (more pioneering, surely?) ASMF/Marriner set.

[smittims]

Yes, the Marriner set was awarded a 'rosette' by the Penguin guide and has always had good reviews. How fashions change!

[RobP]

I hadn't listened to a full BaL for many years; I did enjoy this one but with one reservation.

I accept that with limited time he had to concentrate on the recordings most people would be considering in choosing one version . But by ignoring the first half of the recorded history of these concertos he was telling only half a story. Maybe one day someone who chose a HIPP version will chance to hear a bit of Menuhin, Marriner or Boyd Neel and get a hint of what they show of Handelian interpretation. Although I enjoy Pinnock and Antonini (and Hogwood, who was oddly unmentioned) I find the earlier recordings more satisfying, and I would encourage anyone looking to find out what this music has below the surface, to hear some of them. .

Just isn't going to happen today. HIPP rules supreme and as you say in 45 minutes the reviewer wouldn't have time to illustrate the versions you mention. It's also worth bearing in mind that a few weeks ago a reviewer actually said that 'as it has to be a modern recording'. You do find that HIPP reviewer protagonists have a habit of effectively saying 'Oh dear, how quaint...' now lets move on to X whose bow release, where the bows are one millimeter shorter than Y, which as all know makes a huge difference, is exemplary etc.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Just isn't going to happen today. HIPP rules supreme and as you say in 45 minutes the reviewer wouldn't have time to illustrate the versions you mention. It's also worth bearing in mind that a few weeks ago a reviewer actually said that 'as it has to be a modern recording'. You do find that HIPP reviewer protagonists have a habit of effectively saying 'Oh dear, how quaint...' now lets move on to X whose bow release, where the bows are one millimeter shorter than Y, which as all know makes a huge difference, is exemplary etc.

I’m not an expert on Handel performance but would I be right in thinking that what we know for sure (not speculation ) about string playing - bowing , phrasing , vibrato , articulation -in Handels time can be written on the back of a postcard ?
Elgar once advised a student that Just about everything you needed to know about writing for strings could be found by studying Handel.

[RobP]

I’m not an expert on Handel performance but would I be right in thinking that what we know for sure (not speculation ) about string playing - bowing , phrasing , vibrato , articulation -in Handels time can be written on the back of a postcard ?
Elgar once advised a student that Just about everything you needed to know about writing for strings could be found by studying Handel.

Very probably re back of a postcard, but HIPP has spawned a whole industry, including resurrecting a whole host of second-rate composers, that takes itself rather too seriously.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Very probably re back of a postcard, but HIPP has spawned a whole industry, including resurrecting a whole host of second-rate composers, that takes itself rather too seriously.

How do we know that a ‘heavy’ string sound isn’t precisely what Handel wanted ? Maybe the idea of wanting any consistent type of performance wasn’t the case then as you just had to make the best with what you had ? When you read even of performances in Wagner’s time it’s extraordinary how improvised it all was - desks didn’t turn up , people went sick. Wagner was as a conductor constantly having to work round all sorts of problems a modern conductor would never encounter.
Do we even have any idea of early 18th century historic tempi ?

[smittims]

I think a lot of listeners and CD buyers don't realise how much of HIPP is conjecture: very sincere, well-researced honest conjecture though it be. I'm sure if we went back in a time machine and sat in on an actual Handel performance we'd heve some surprises.

[Master Jacques]

How do we know that a ‘heavy’ string sound isn’t precisely what Handel wanted ? Maybe the idea of wanting any consistent type of performance wasn’t the case then as you just had to make the best with what you had ? [...] Do we even have any idea of early 18th century historic tempi ?

We know that his 'pit orchestras' were small for the operas and oratorios - and very select. That's the orchestra for which these concertos were written, of course.

London could afford the best in those days (sigh...) and paid large fees to employ the top instrumental virtuosi from Italy, and all over Europe. So a "heavy sound" was not what he wanted, or expected, for his chamber orchestras of "all the talents". Making the best of what he had was something he had to manage with singers, on occasion, although once again the standards he was working to were amazingly high.

And yes, we do have many sources giving clues on 18th c. tempi. The information is out there for scholars to draw on, and indeed - to be fair - argue over! The great weight of scholarly opinion, though, would argue that lightness and rhythmic clarity rather than record-breaking speed was the norm for allegro movements, while largos and adagios would be more flexibly geared to the size of ensembles and the size of auditoriums.