BaL 4.07.15 - Rodgers: Carousel

[MrGongGong]

Not Western classical music, which here in the west we assume without specifying it every time.

'Classical musics' come from across the Middle to Far East, and Africa. They were what I excluded under 'global traditional' in #66.

'global traditional'

[MrGongGong]

Mr GG #72
雅楽 is not クラッシック音楽. The English word ‘classic’ is attached to gagaku for nothing more than the convenience for English speakers (the context).

no one likes a smart arse
and i'm not going to insult my Japanese friends by asking for a translation or use google translate which won't work anyway.

So a translation would be useful please


Gakaku IS court music and therefore is one of many 'classical' musics IMV

[french frank]

'global traditional'

Don't like? Tough It refers to various types of music from all over the world that follow cultural traditions. Western classical music being just the one that people here are most familiar with. Just as English is the language we speak among many equal languages.

[MrGongGong]

Don't like? Tough It refers to various types of music from all over the world that follow cultural traditions. Western classical music being just the one that people here are most familiar with. Just as English is the language we speak among many equal languages.

Can you give me an example of a type of music that doesn't "follow cultural traditions"?

[french frank]

Can you give me an example of a type of music that doesn't "follow cultural traditions"?

The important word was GLOBAL - following cultural traditions from around the world rather than just in the West; but folk musics (which I also mentioned) and classical musics follow different traditions from each other. Just as Western classical music follows a different cultural tradition from Arabic.

[MrGongGong]

The important word was GLOBAL - following cultural traditions from around the world rather than just in the West; but folk musics (which I also mentioned) and classical musics follow different traditions from each other. Just as Western classical music follows a different cultural tradition from Arabic.

Interesting

(You know i'm awkward )

[french frank]

(You know i'm awkward )

I had not noticed :-|

[doversoul1]

no one likes a smart arse
and i'm not going to insult my Japanese friends by asking for a translation or use google translate which won't work anyway.

So a translation would be useful please


Gakaku IS court music and therefore is one of many 'classical' musics IMV

Oh, sorry. I didn’t realise you couldn’t read it. You always sound such an expert on the subject. They are just gagaku and classical music. Why on earth will your friend be insulted if you ask for the translation? Anyway Google translation would have been perfectly adequate.

As for context, when classical music is mentioned in the ‘context’ of Radio3, I’d have thought it was obvious that it refers to Western art music.

Glad to hear that you know no one likes a smart arse.

[Stanfordian]

Thanks, Stafordian... I think the fence will do fine. I have long learned not to get to deeply into intense discussions on music as with many other things. I prefer to leave it to those who like and I can go on and do my thing. I must say that as an immigrant Yank, I am not a fan of Broadway Musicals. Oddly, the only exception is West Side Story... at least for me.

Hiya Black Swan,

I jest but I'm sure you are right. My interest is this. With the inclusion of the musical Carousel (a musical I love dearly) on BAL where will they go next. If Carousel is included I can't see why musicals such as the Sound of Music, Mamma Mia!, The Rocky Horror Picture Show or The Who's Tommy; cannot be included. Surely Radio 2 in the evenings is best at covering musicals after all one would not place Parsifal on Radio 2 or Radio 1.

By the way did you catch any of the Nielsen cycle at the Bridgewater Hall? On Friday night I attended a wonderful performance before a packed audiance at the Bridgewater of the Penderecki Symphony No. 7 'Seven Gates of Jerusalem' with the RNCM Orchestra and Chorus conducted by the composer. They also played the Lutoslawski Piano Concerto.

[MrGongGong]

Oh, sorry. I didn’t realise you couldn’t read it. You always sound such an expert on the subject. They are just gagaku and classical music. Why on earth will your friend be insulted if you ask for the translation? Anyway Google translation would have been perfectly adequate.

As for context, when classical music is mentioned in the ‘context’ of Radio3, I’d have thought it was obvious that it refers to Western art music.

Glad to hear that you know no one likes a smart arse.

I might not be an expert on the Japanese language
but those who do really know about this
like this chap

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_P._Malm

refer to it as 'classical music'

but obviously you know best

(hope you have recovered from your modest performance last night Mr West)

[doversoul1]

I might not be an expert on the Japanese language
but those who do really know about this
like this chap

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_P._Malm

refer to it as 'classical music'

but obviously you know best

(hope you have recovered from your modest performance last night Mr West)

I thought you were expert on Japanese music.

As far as I can see, what ‘this chap’’ does know is Japanese traditional popular music, an equivalent maybe to music theatre and Morris dance music. I guess, by classical music, he simply means old/traditional music.

Incidentally, how does he distinguish between Japanese classical or art music (gagaku) from traditional or old popular music (zokugaku) other than from the audience of each music? That will be an interesting addition to this discussion.

By the way, do you use publications from 1950s as your main reference?

Who is Mr West?

(no need to answer the last two questions unless they are relevant to this thread)

[MrGongGong]

I thought you were expert on Japanese music.

As far as I can see, what ‘this chap’’ does know is Japanese traditional popular music, an equivalent maybe to music theatre and Morris dance music. I guess, by classical music, he simply means old/traditional music.

Incidentally, how does he distinguish between Japanese classical or art music (gagaku) from traditional or old popular music (zokugaku) other than from the audience of each music? That will be an interesting addition to this discussion.

FFS

I am NOT an "expert" on Japanese music BUT I did study ethnomusicology and have worked with several players of Japanese traditional music (like I did yesterday)

For your information William Malm is one of the seminal figures in that discipline
If you want to know more this is a good place to start

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Japanese-Music-Musical-Instruments-William-ebook/dp/B00D5FR2YE/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1435519546&sr=1-1

"as far as I can see'

You don't seem to be able to see very far my friend

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

When I hear "You'll never walk alone" I am reminded of an Everton supporter who came into our local Tesco store with a T-shirt emblazened with the words "I always walk alone". Is this an Everton slogan?

[doversoul1]

For your information William Malm is one of the seminal figures in that discipline

You do like Authority, don’t you. That was in the wiki, too.

If you want to know more this is a good place to start

A book first published in 1950s from the publisher specialised in popular / semi-academic books about Asia?

You don't seem to be able to see very far my friend

This is from the wiki link you posted;
His primary research area was the music of the shamisen, including music of the Japanese kabuki and bunraku theatre. His book Japanese Music and Musical Instruments (1959) was the first scholarly and comprehensive survey of its subject in English.[1] His book on nagauta (music of the kabuki theater),

All the underlined terms are of zokugaku/popular music.

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/05/04/ar...tradition.html

…and this is in the same wiki article in which he writes about Japanese traditional popular music.

If you can tell me what this chap says about how gagaku (art music) and zokugaku (popular music) are to be distinguished, please do. Other that that, I shan't continue this discussion.

[MrGongGong]

Mr ...soul

You would probably be happier here

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?799-Pedants-Paradise&highlight=pedants

For your information

I've never claimed to be an expert on anything
I studied ethnomusicology in the 1980's so my references are probably a bit out of date
As you seem to jump on your high horse every time anyone mentions Japanese music then i'll avoid it from now on as you are obviously more expert than ANY of the people I have discussed these things with (including Jo Kondo, Somei Satoh and several professors of musicology) in the past.

When my colleague gets back from the international Shakuhachi society summer school in Paris next week I'll have a word about where he would place this music as he knows more than me (but probably not as much as you)