BaL 4.07.15 - Rodgers: Carousel

[french frank]

Out of interest, how do you define 'classical'? Under one definition, based on period and style, Haydn's music is classical but Handel's isn't.

It has both meanings, depending on context. I can't understand how anyone would find that unsatisfactory, given that any number of everyday words have a number of meanings which are distinct e.g. table, hand, desktop.

In many cases the easier something is to define, the less meaning the idea has.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Classical music and the classical period are not one and the same. The "classical period" differs in music from classical literature and art.

[Honoured Guest]

Radio 3's remit covered musical theatre for decades, with Edward Seckerson, Robert Cushman, Mark Steyn and others. As just one example from Saturday Review, the predecessor of CD Review, Mark Steyn reviewed three new record releases on Saturday 15 October 1988: http://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/fa7924660...4849fcc38938f7

[Flosshilde]

It has both meanings, depending on context.

I only gave one definition. How would you define it?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I notice we do not have have "You'll Never Walk Alone" in this year's LNOTP. Instead, there's a medley from The Sound of Music.

[french frank]

I only gave one definition. How would you define it?

It still depends on context.

If we're talking in general about something vaguely called 'classical music' 1066 - 2015, 'classical music' refers (for me) to music composed in a portion of the 18th c., centrally the music of Haydn and Mozart, but including less well-known composers of the same period. Post Baroque, pre Romantic, and assuming that the styles merge as they develop. But if the discussion is about the equally vague topic 'music' I would mean not jazz, not global traditional or folk traditions, not popular/pop/charts music.

To me, modern film music is not classical music by either of my definitions; nor is musical theatre from the early 20th c. onwards.

The precise definition becomes more complicated when you get classical composers who are influenced by folk music, jazz, rock or modern technological developments. But where particular styles are aimed slap-bang at particular target audiences (defined by their musical tastes), the picture is clear: rap, hiphop and pop aren't classical.

[vinteuil]

It's become a cliché to attach the phrase 'whatever that is' (or similar) where Western classical music is concerned. It's an (if I may) intellectually lazy cop-out since:

a) clearly there is no watertight definition according to which music is assigned either to one category - classical music - OR, on the other side of the 'barrier' - not-classical music.

... these are seriously wise words.

And of course they describe an age-old problem, that of 'vagueness', 'Wang's Paradox', or sorites

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sorites-paradox/

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/vagueness/

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/arche/papers/Dummett%20LLP.pdf

Me, I'm with French Frank on this...

[french frank]

Me, I'm with French Frank on this...

More seriously wise words You won't go far wrong …

[Black Swan]

A very interesting, as always, discussion here. I can see all the points of view and in the end it is up to each individual. For me I am not the least bit interested, so I won't be tuning in for the BAL. But I hope those who are have an interesting listening experience.

[Stanfordian]

A very interesting, as always, discussion here. I can see all the points of view and in the end it is up to each individual. For me I am not the least bit interested, so I won't be tuning in for the BAL. But I hope those who are have an interesting listening experience.

Hiya Black Swan,

I hope that fence is sturdy. Ha!Ha!

[Black Swan]

Thanks, Stafordian... I think the fence will do fine. I have long learned not to get to deeply into intense discussions on music as with many other things. I prefer to leave it to those who like and I can go on and do my thing. I must say that as an immigrant Yank, I am not a fan of Broadway Musicals. Oddly, the only exception is West Side Story... at least for me.

[MrGongGong]

To me, modern film music is not classical music by either of my definitions; nor is musical theatre from the early 20th c. onwards.

Is Gagaku or Gamelan?

(they are to me because of their context)

[french frank]

Is Gagaku or Gamelan?

(they are to me because of their context)

Not Western classical music, which here in the west we assume without specifying it every time.

'Classical musics' come from across the Middle to Far East, and Africa. They were what I excluded under 'global traditional' in #66.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oddly, the only exception is West Side Story... at least for me.

Ah ... but canons, fugues, motivic permutations; it's a composer who'd been taught Species Counterpoint.

Perhaps that's a definition of "Musics from the Western Classical Traditions" - stuff written by someone who knew how to write a Fugue?

[doversoul1]

Black Swan #71

I have long learned not to get to deeply into intense discussions on music

This is (for me at least) not a discussion about music but (primarily) about what should and shouldn’t Radio 3 be doing. Besides that, these days, musicals don’t excite me terribly except for West Side Story. However, I wasn’t at all impressed by its BaL.

Mr GG #72
雅楽 is not クラッシック音楽. The English word ‘classic’ is attached to gagaku for nothing more than the convenience for English speakers (the context).