BaL 3.02.24 - Beethoven: Piano Sonata No. 26 in E♭ major, Op. 81a "Les Adieux"

[Ein Heldenleben]

The observation is certainly rational, and rather shows the rationality of likes and dislikes than the reverse. You possibly have equal difficulties with 'Mr Crescendo' himself, Rossini!

(To anyone who may be interested, I recommend Kahl Dahlhaus's classic Nineteenth-Century Music, which starts from the precept that there is no difference in aesthetic "value" between the Beethovenian way of writing music, and the - historically equally influential - Rossinian way. Just a very wide gulf in methodology. Our individual likes and dislikes rather depend on whether our tastes tend one way or the other, though of course it is possible to appreciate Les Adieux as well as The Thieving Magpie. In this view, Bruckner is a Rossinian rather than Beethovenian composer, odd though that may sound!)

Beethoven met Rossini and Quite acutely told him not to compromise his talent by doing anything other than comic operas.
He very generously said :
“Ah! Rossini, you, the composer of the Barbiere di Seviglia? My congratulations; that is an excellent opera buffa; I have read it with pleasure and I enjoyed myself. It will be played so long as Italian opera will exist.” Clearly and sadly LVB was not able to hear Rossini’s masterpiece.
For his part Rossini tried to raise money for a fellow composer who he could see was struggling financially. I guess the difference between them is that Rossini gave up composing well before his demise whereas they practically had to tear the quill out of Beethovens dying hand.
I am struggling to see much of a musical connection between Bruckner and Rossini other than their profound Catholic faith which they might well have thought is the only connection that matters.

[Master Jacques]

I am struggling to see much of a musical connection between Bruckner and Rossini other than their profound Catholic faith which they might well have thought is the only connection that matters.

They might indeed. But looking at the knots into which analysts tie themselves, producing unfathomable maps of Bruckner's alleged use of sonata forms and principles, I feel that such attempts often succeed in putting people off Bruckner for life. His structures are not Beethovenian-Les-Adieux, but built in a Wagnerian symphonic-dramatic way, best listened to "in the moment", rather than relationally. This is just the way we listen to an opera - German or Italian - with its Leitmotifs and/or repeated 'block' sections.

(I can't find French Frank's 'ideas and theory' section to place this more suitably.)

[french frank]

They might indeed. But looking at the knots into which analysts tie themselves, producing unfathomable maps of Bruckner's alleged use of sonata forms and principles, I feel that such attempts often succeed in putting people off Bruckner for life. His structures are not Beethovenian-Les-Adieux, but built in a Wagnerian symphonic-dramatic way, best listened to "in the moment", rather than relationally. This is just the way we listen to an opera - German or Italian - with its Leitmotifs and/or repeated 'block' sections.

(I can't find French Frank's 'ideas and theory' section to place this more suitably.)

It's here. (I didn't start a new general discussion on taste-preferences-likes and dislikes-critical judgement-rationality &c as I was weighing up whether there was any interest in that particular subject.)

[Ein Heldenleben]

They might indeed. But looking at the knots into which analysts tie themselves, producing unfathomable maps of Bruckner's alleged use of sonata forms and principles, I feel that such attempts often succeed in putting people off Bruckner for life. His structures are not Beethovenian-Les-Adieux, but built in a Wagnerian symphonic-dramatic way, best listened to "in the moment", rather than relationally. This is just the way we listen to an opera - German or Italian - with its Leitmotifs and/or repeated 'block' sections.

(I can't find French Frank's 'ideas and theory' section to place this more suitably.)

Funnily enough I can see more of a musical link between Wagner and Beethoven than Wagner and Bruckner though there is one obviously . For me both the latter took their own “lessons “ from LVB and fashioned their own path . Wagner drew a great deal from Beethoven. Les Adieux even contains an embryonic leitmotif in the Lebewohl of the first three notes. Wagner also , more than any one else grasped the significance of the ninth symphony - that the music of the future had to involve the human voice . It’s a bit of a mugs game drawing musical influences ultimately . Suffice it to say there aren’t many 19th composers who weren’t directly influenced by Beethoven - even the Rossini / Verdi/ Puccini tradition which I admire enormously.

[Master Jacques]

Funnily enough I can see more of a musical link between Wagner and Beethoven than Wagner and Bruckner though there is one obviously . For me both the latter took their own “lessons “ from LVB and fashioned their own path . Wagner drew a great deal from Beethoven. Les Adieux even contains an embryonic leitmotif in the Lebewohl of the first three notes. Wagner also , more than any one else grasped the significance of the ninth symphony - that the music of the future had to involve the human voice . It’s a bit of a mugs game drawing musical influences ultimately . Suffice it to say there aren’t many 19th composers who weren’t directly influenced by Beethoven - even the Rossini / Verdi/ Puccini tradition which I admire enormously.

A mug's game, for sure! Certainly, I would say that we tend to finger Beethovenian "influences" from our standpoint of reverence, and should be wary of assuming it in his contemporaries. (We can find 'Leitmotif' in Monteverdi's Orfeo - that string ritornello binding the acts - and calling it "reminiscence" doesn't change what it is.) And no matter how much Rossini may have respected the ageing master, when it comes to templates for his method, Simon Mayr was the key figure - along with Mozart, and a lot of composers we know little about nowadays.

Like Schoenberg after him, it is perhaps more fruitful to view Beethoven as an end in himself, rather than a beginning (or indeed reinventing him as the "transitional" composer of popular legend, hanging between the so-called 'classical' and 'romantic' periods.) The 'influences' - or more precisely, the examples - of the Italians and French, let alone Weber and Marschner, have more dialectic with young Wagner than Beethoven ever did. In the end - as you say - "fashioning their own path" is just about all any composer worth their salt ever thinks about.

[Master Jacques]

It's here. (I didn't start a new general discussion on taste-preferences-likes and dislikes-critical judgement-rationality &c as I was weighing up whether there was any interest in that particular subject.)

Thank you.

[richardfinegold]

Gilels was the overall choice with Paul Lewis the worthy runner up. Every recording Lucy played was distinguished and all so varied.
The great Cambridge critic F.R Leavis famously dismissed Hardy and (until a later massive recantation) all Dickens save Hard Times. He also thought Proust and Joyce not worth the effort. He also famously refused to produce an easy to understand point by point rationale or schematic for doing so. He also promoted one or two writers e,g, the poet Ronald Bottrall - whose reputation , perhaps wrongly, has not endured. There will always be an element of the irrational , even whim , or the influence of mood in any critical judgement. The trick is to try and set these aside. I don’t like the way Pletnev pulls the tempi around in Chopin, I find Pollini’s playing immaculate but completely uninvolving. Others rave about them.

I think I had the Gilels on lp. My collection was ruined in a flood in the eighties.
Not to beat a dead horse, but of course we are all going to have preferences. If I just wanted to be in a group where people state, I hate performer A, love B, not give any reasons for the judgement, and just hide behind the ‘preferences are subjective ‘shield, then I’ll stop coming to this site and go back to Facebook . One reason I like it here is because of the intelligent discussion that usually accompanies the pronouncements.

[richardfinegold]

Beethoven met Rossini and Quite acutely told him not to compromise his talent by doing anything other than comic operas.
He very generously said :
“Ah! Rossini, you, the composer of the Barbiere di Seviglia? My congratulations; that is an excellent opera buffa; I have read it with pleasure and I enjoyed myself. It will be played so long as Italian opera will exist.” Clearly and sadly LVB was not able to hear Rossini’s masterpiece.
For his part Rossini tried to raise money for a fellow composer who he could see was struggling financially. I guess the difference between them is that Rossini gave up composing well before his demise whereas they practically had to tear the quill out of Beethovens dying hand.
I am struggling to see much of a musical connection between Bruckner and Rossini other than their profound Catholic faith which they might well have thought is the only connection that matters.

I believe that Beethoven was less generous to Rossini in his private remarks

[LMcD]

I think I had the Gilels on lp. My collection was ruined in a flood in the eighties.
Not to beat a dead horse, but of course we are all going to have preferences. If I just wanted to be in a group where people state, I hate performer A, love B, not give any reasons for the judgement, and just hide behind the ‘preferences are subjective ‘shield, then I’ll stop coming to this site and go back to Facebook . One reason I like it here is because of the intelligent discussion that usually accompanies the pronouncements.

I don't think anybody has expressed hatred for any performer. I recently read that my favourite Breakfast presenter drove one Forum member round the bend, but my only reaction was to hope that he didn't accidentally tune in while on the road.
I don't really get angry about anything these days (except the Post Office Horizon scandal).

[smittims]

Agreed. I'm all for people saying 'I just don' like X..'s interpretation, personally' , or 'sorry, he's just not my kind of performer'. What I don't like is someone's saying of an eminent musician at the top of his career, 'He's useless, incompetent, unmusical' as if it were a fact, not a preference.

[french frank]

I don't really get angry about anything these days (except the Post Office Horizon scandal).

I tend to reserve my anger for injustices, though 'feel strongly' is probably a better description (or even 'very strongly') than anger. Likes and dislikes are subjective, and you can rationalise them for yourself, but the rationalisation remains subjective unless, by the same method of rationalisation, 'rational' people arrive at the same conclusion.

A critical judgement should be objective in making statements on which people can agree. Objectively, one could agree that Schnabel hits the wrong notes - but you can still love his performances. Or dislike a technically/emotionally/interpretatively 'perfect' performance which - for you alone possibly - has something missing. In my opinion

[Master Jacques]

A critical judgement should be objective in making statements on which people can agree. Objectively, one could agree that Schnabel hits the wrong notes - but you can still love his performances. Or dislike a technically/emotionally/interpretatively 'perfect' performance which - for you alone possibly - has something missing. In my opinion

Sound advice. I'd want to make a clear distinction between a "critic" and a "reviewer". While the critic must try to present objective evidence ('the performer does this, which results in that'), the reviewer has carte blanche to spout a well-penned opinion, without offering much evidence to back it up. Given the lack of space allowed to writers nowadays - in whatever medium - those technically perfect performances are the very devil to write up. Trying to justify exactly why they are dead dogs is almost impossible, given limited space, without resorting to mealy-mouthed styles such as "I felt..." or "Perhaps it was me, but...". That sort of thing does not make good copy!

[silvestrione]

I think I had the Gilels on lp. My collection was ruined in a flood in the eighties.
Not to beat a dead horse, but of course we are all going to have preferences. If I just wanted to be in a group where people state, I hate performer A, love B, not give any reasons for the judgement, and just hide behind the ‘preferences are subjective ‘shield, then I’ll stop coming to this site and go back to Facebook . One reason I like it here is because of the intelligent discussion that usually accompanies the pronouncements.

Absolutely, thank you for putting that so trenchantly!

I strongly dislike the 'its all just a matter of opinion/ subjective' line...in fact, this last week I've been trying to find the reasons for my lack of enthusiasm for Les Adieux!

I did much enjoy the extracts from Paul Lewis, especially one where I missed the intro to tell me who was playing...

[LMcD]

I tend to reserve my anger for injustices, though 'feel strongly' is probably a better description (or even 'very strongly') than anger. Likes and dislikes are subjective, and you can rationalise them for yourself, but the rationalisation remains subjective unless, by the same method of rationalisation, 'rational' people arrive at the same conclusion.

A critical judgement should be objective in making statements on which people can agree. Objectively, one could agree that Schnabel hits the wrong notes - but you can still love his performances. Or dislike a technically/emotionally/interpretatively 'perfect' performance which - for you alone possibly - has something missing. In my opinion

.. but were they nevertheless in the right order?

[gurnemanz]

Olga Pashchenko on a beautifully restored Graf of 1824 plumbs the emotional depth of this work in a consummate performance of real artistry. No one who loves this music should fail to hear this recording.

Thanks, Sir V, for drawing attention to the Olga Pashchenko recording which I have listened to with great pleasure via Spotify. I had not heard of her until I encountered her as accompanist to Georg Nigl on a new song disc from Alpha. I have already mentioned it elsewhere on here as one of my favourite acquisitions of 2023.