BaL 3.02.24 - Beethoven: Piano Sonata No. 26 in E♭ major, Op. 81a "Les Adieux"

[french frank]

Aren't most likes and dislikes irrational?

At least, not rational. And tastes should not be confused with opinions, though I believe tastes can be explained if not ultimately understood vis à vis the different tastes of other people.

I started out from a level of ignorance ("not keen on Beethoven's sonatas") to a project of self-education via a number of YouTube videos, live and recorded performances of number of "great" pianists (still waiting for the name of Pollini to be mentioned here ). I shall catch up with this BaL with interest).

[Master Jacques]

Aren't most likes and dislikes irrational?
I don't like listening to Bruckner symphonies because, for me, they come across as a seemingly endless series of crescendi that leave me in the same place at the end as I was at the beginning, but I'm not sure whether that comprises a 'rationale'.

The observation is certainly rational, and rather shows the rationality of likes and dislikes than the reverse. You possibly have equal difficulties with 'Mr Crescendo' himself, Rossini!

(To anyone who may be interested, I recommend Kahl Dahlhaus's classic Nineteenth-Century Music, which starts from the precept that there is no difference in aesthetic "value" between the Beethovenian way of writing music, and the - historically equally influential - Rossinian way. Just a very wide gulf in methodology. Our individual likes and dislikes rather depend on whether our tastes tend one way or the other, though of course it is possible to appreciate Les Adieux as well as The Thieving Magpie. In this view, Bruckner is a Rossinian rather than Beethovenian composer, odd though that may sound!)

[LMcD]

The observation is certainly rational, and rather shows the rationality of likes and dislikes than the reverse. You possibly have equal difficulties with 'Mr Crescendo' himself, Rossini!

(To anyone who may be interested, I recommend Kahl Dahlhaus's classic Nineteenth-Century Music, which starts from the precept that there is no difference in aesthetic "value" between the Beethovenian way of writing music, and the - historically equally influential - Rossinian way. Just a very wide gulf in methodology. Our individual likes and dislikes rather depend on whether our tastes tend one way or the other, though of course it is possible to appreciate Les Adieux as well as The Thieving Magpie. In this view, Bruckner is a Rossinian rather than Beethovenian composer, odd though that may sound!)

Not at all - for me, any one of Rossini's tuneful crescendi marks the end of a musical journey after which - probably irrationally - I feel full of the joys of Spring.
For the record, I like both Les Adieux and La Gazza Ladra.

[Master Jacques]

Not at all - for me, any one of Rossini's tuneful crescendi marks the end of a musical journey after which - probably irrationally - I feel full of the joys of Spring.
For the record, I like both Les Adieux and La Gazza Ladra.

Same here! But once again, I don't think your reaction is irrational. Rather, the joy which comes from hearing the working out of a pattern, to its inevitable conclusion. The solving of a puzzle producing heady pleasure. This is the joy of rationality, connecting things up in the brain, which produces the feeling of emotional well-being. All that "head versus heart" stuff is nonsense, as you can't have one without the other. The 'Lebewohl" motif of Les Adieux perhaps satisfies us in a similar way (Brendel on Vox for me, as he understands the 'operatic' side of Beethoven's sonatas so well!)

[LMcD]

Same here! But once again, I don't think your reaction is irrational. Rather, the joy which comes from hearing the working out of a pattern, to its inevitable conclusion. The solving of a puzzle producing heady pleasure. This is the joy of rationality, connecting things up in the brain, which produces the feeling of emotional well-being. All that "head versus heart" stuff is nonsense, as you can't have one without the other. The 'Lebewohl" motif of Les Adieux perhaps satisfies us in a similar way (Brendel on Vox for me, as he understands the 'operatic' side of Beethoven's sonatas so well!)

So that's how it works .....
I have recordings of 'Les Adieux' by John Lill and Claudio Arrau, and have enjoyed them for years without ever wondering whether they are huge super megastars in the musical pantheon or whatever!

[gradus]

So that's how it works .....
I have recordings of 'Les Adieux' by John Lill and Claudio Arrau, and have enjoyed them for years without ever wondering whether they are huge super megastars in the musical pantheon or whatever!

Two wonderful pianists and at least Arrau got a brief BAL mention.
Although Lucy Parham played excerpts from Schnabel and a rare Russian recording, it would be so much more interesting to revive Interpretations on Record and allow reviewers the time to expand the range of performances.

[french frank]

Interpretations on Record and allow reviewers the time to expand the range of performances.

It's been suggested to the previous two controllers without result. Perhaps it's time to renew the suggestion to the current one?

[As I disagree with some of the comments about what is 'rational' in terms of personal taste, I thought of starting a new thread elsewhere - on Ideas and Theory - rather than bog down this thread with a general discussion.]

[richardfinegold]

So who won?
Back to Perahia,his recording is available on Apple, and I listened to it along with the Op.31 Sonatas. I didn’t realize that he had recorded so much Beethoven at an earlier stage of his career. There was about a 10 year span in my life when I didn’t buy many recordings, having no disposable income or listening time, and that was when MP career was in full swing, but someone gave me tickets to a MP recital and one of the early Sonatas was on the program along with Mozart and Mendelssohn and well I’ve been a fan ever since. The Les Adieux recording demonstrates unbelievable fast and precise passage work inthe last movement, a real tour de force. My only quibble is that despite the unbelievable playing it somehow doesn’t build to the kind of a steamroller ending that Arrau and Fisher generate.
Regarding Taste and Preference : We all have our favorites , and much of the music we discuss here has dozens of recording choices. And as I noted previously, lack of renown with respect to an Artist doesn’t connote lack of artistic merit. However, imo, if we are going to spend time time comparing recordings and artists, which it seems to me is the whole point of a comparative survey, if we make a statement dismissing any of them, and especially the big names, at least some brief rationale is due. If I was taking a course in nineteenth century comparative English Literature , I wouldn’t be impressed by a classmate that breezily opined he had no time for Austen, Dickens, the Brontes, Thackeray, etc. because he had discovered the oeuvre of an unknown writer that had starved in a garret and whose writings rendered all the others irrelevant, unless he could provide some sort of rationale

[Ein Heldenleben]

So who won?
Back to Perahia,his recording is available on Apple, and I listened to it along with the Op.31 Sonatas. I didn’t realize that he had recorded so much Beethoven at an earlier stage of his career. There was about a 10 year span in my life when I didn’t buy many recordings, having no disposable income or listening time, and that was when MP career was in full swing, but someone gave me tickets to a MP recital and one of the early Sonatas was on the program along with Mozart and Mendelssohn and well I’ve been a fan ever since. The Les Adieux recording demonstrates unbelievable fast and precise passage work inthe last movement, a real tour de force. My only quibble is that despite the unbelievable playing it somehow doesn’t build to the kind of a steamroller ending that Arrau and Fisher generate.
Regarding Taste and Preference : We all have our favorites , and much of the music we discuss here has dozens of recording choices. And as I noted previously, lack of renown with respect to an Artist doesn’t connote lack of artistic merit. However, imo, if we are going to spend time time comparing recordings and artists, which it seems to me is the whole point of a comparative survey, if we make a statement dismissing any of them, and especially the big names, at least some brief rationale is due. If I was taking a course in nineteenth century comparative English Literature , I wouldn’t be impressed by a classmate that breezily opined he had no time for Austen, Dickens, the Brontes, Thackeray, etc. because he had discovered the oeuvre of an unknown writer that had starved in a garret and whose writings rendered all the others irrelevant, unless he could provide some sort of rationale

Gilels was the overall choice with Paul Lewis the worthy runner up. Every recording Lucy played was distinguished and all so varied.
The great Cambridge critic F.R Leavis famously dismissed Hardy and (until a later massive recantation) all Dickens save Hard Times. He also thought Proust and Joyce not worth the effort. He also famously refused to produce an easy to understand point by point rationale or schematic for doing so. He also promoted one or two writers e,g, the poet Ronald Bottrall - whose reputation , perhaps wrongly, has not endured. There will always be an element of the irrational , even whim , or the influence of mood in any critical judgement. The trick is to try and set these aside. I don’t like the way Pletnev pulls the tempi around in Chopin, I find Pollini’s playing immaculate but completely uninvolving. Others rave about them.

[gradus]

It's been suggested to the previous two controllers without result. Perhaps it's time to renew the suggestion to the current one?

[As I disagree with some of the comments about what is 'rational' in terms of personal taste, I thought of starting a new thread elsewhere - on Ideas and Theory - rather than bog down this thread with a general discussion.]

I'd be delighted to support a further suggestion to the Controller.

[smittims]

I too would welcome the return of Interpretations on Record, and even more , the less-well-known Historical Interpretations on Record, but I fear that for today's R3 they are too 'troisieme chain', as Anna Kallin would say, to get an airing.

[french frank]

I too would welcome the return of Interpretations on Record, and even more , the less-well-known Historical Interpretations on Record, but I fear that for today's R3 they are too 'troisieme chain', as Anna Kallin would say, to get an airing.

It does appear that now even RR and BaL are being adjusted to suit the less 'critical' audience.

[LMcD]

So who won?
Back to Perahia,his recording is available on Apple, and I listened to it along with the Op.31 Sonatas. I didn’t realize that he had recorded so much Beethoven at an earlier stage of his career. There was about a 10 year span in my life when I didn’t buy many recordings, having no disposable income or listening time, and that was when MP career was in full swing, but someone gave me tickets to a MP recital and one of the early Sonatas was on the program along with Mozart and Mendelssohn and well I’ve been a fan ever since. The Les Adieux recording demonstrates unbelievable fast and precise passage work inthe last movement, a real tour de force. My only quibble is that despite the unbelievable playing it somehow doesn’t build to the kind of a steamroller ending that Arrau and Fisher generate.
Regarding Taste and Preference : We all have our favorites , and much of the music we discuss here has dozens of recording choices. And as I noted previously, lack of renown with respect to an Artist doesn’t connote lack of artistic merit. However, imo, if we are going to spend time time comparing recordings and artists, which it seems to me is the whole point of a comparative survey, if we make a statement dismissing any of them, and especially the big names, at least some brief rationale is due. If I was taking a course in nineteenth century comparative English Literature , I wouldn’t be impressed by a classmate that breezily opined he had no time for Austen, Dickens, the Brontes, Thackeray, etc. because he had discovered the oeuvre of an unknown writer that had starved in a garret and whose writings rendered all the others irrelevant, unless he could provide some sort of rationale

May one ask a trio of questions?
1. Which is worse - mentioning somebody only to dismiss them, or ignoring them altogether?
2. Who decides which artistes have names big enough to justify a rationale if somebody has the nerve to dismiss them?
3. Would it make a difference if the unknown writer whom you mention had had enough to eat and/or lived in decent accommodation?

[Maclintick]

Olga Pashchenko on a beautifully restored Graf of 1824 plumbs the emotional depth of this work in a consummate performance of real artistry. No one who loves this music should fail to hear this recording.

Many thanks for the heads-up on this, Sir Velo. Today I streamed the whole of Olga Pashchenko's CD containing the "Waldstein", "Appassionata" & "Les Adieux", being impressed/moved/excited to such a degree that I listened through it all again, marvelling at the range of colours OP conjured from that 1824 Graf, from LVB's madcap fortissimos to shadowy half-lights & veiled "una corda" phrases. Anyone interested should check out the start of the "Waldstein" rondo, where the soft-pedalled pp haze creates a level of pent-up expectation unmatched IMHO. True artistry, though I have one slight caveat over OP's agogic accents, which occasionally struck me as "applied" rather than felt in the moment, if that makes sense ? I'm no expert on such niceties, but I would imagine that agogic accents, not being notated, are deployed on the whim of the moment by performers who have absorbed historically-informed practice into their DNA & musical muscle-memory, as it were. If I may be allowed a recollection from the dim-&-distant past, Tovey's AB performance practice notes referenced LVB's contemporaries as saying that the composer routinely ignored his own instructions in performance. I'm unaware of what contemporary scholars have to say on such matters. ( My ref. is G. Henle Verlag Urtext without notes, & not the latest Bärenreiter edition)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The observation is certainly rational, and rather shows the rationality of likes and dislikes than the reverse. You possibly have equal difficulties with 'Mr Crescendo' himself, Rossini!

Actually Rossini’s crescendi were a continuation of the Mannheim crescendo, developed by Stamitz and his associates, and also by Mozart to good effect.