BaL 30.12 23 - Schubert: Winterreise

[Master Jacques]

Anyone sensing more tension between the two of them than we normally get when Andrew is presenting? Kate keeps asking profound questions which Allyson doesn’t think she wants to answer in the available time.

The air crackles with rising hackles. This dynamic was not comfortable. Personally, I thought KM behaved professionally in not rising to some of the reviewer's bait, and I found their interaction more interesting than anything that was said about the work itself. Which may be what Radio 3 want.

[silvestrione]

The air crackles with rising hackles. This dynamic was not comfortable. Personally, I thought KM behaved professionally in not rising to some of the reviewer's bait, and I found their interaction more interesting than anything that was said about the work itself. Which may be what Radio 3 want.

It would have been much better, I suspect, the other way round, e.g. Kate choosing the short list etc. I thought it a depressingly 'dumbed down' BAL. For once I thought I could offer more insights myself, into the work and the performances (notice the way Gerald Moore's piano is so subtly responsive to the modulations of F-D's voice, whereas I thought some did not seem to be listening to each other at all).

[Bella Kemp]

I have always loved the Peter Schreier and Richter recording made in winter in Dresden - the audience coughing and rustling seems to add to the ambience of melancholic decay.

[Beresford]

It would have been much better, I suspect, the other way round, e.g. Kate choosing the short list etc. I thought it a depressingly 'dumbed down' BAL. For once I thought I could offer more insights myself, into the work and the performances (notice the way Gerald Moore's piano is so subtly responsive to the modulations of F-D's voice, whereas I thought some did not seem to be listening to each other at all).

BAL September 2021 - Allyson Devenish chooses her favourite recording of Schumann's Liederkreis - Kate Molleson presenting. Same issue - lots of talk on how each recording feels to her (Allyson), but not much explanation of what is going on musically.

[Lordgeous]

I don't think anyone not knowing Winterreise would be much encouraged to explore its wonders. And whether or not Pears voice is to your liking, no mention at all of the Pears/Britten recording was an insult. Especially to Britten - "the worlds's greatest accompanist" according to a survey of leading accompanists some years ago. I was lucky enough to hear them perform this 'live' at Aldeburgh. A frustrating BAL for me.

[gurnemanz]

I heard only the latter half of this review. Allyson Devenish said of Der Leierman, the last song, that the Wanderer's journey continues (with the Hurdy-Gurdy man). I have always thought this song was about death: the Hurdy-Gurdy man, barefoot on the ice, to whom no one gives a tip... Soll ich mit dir geh'n?/Shall I go with you? It seems to me an ending of utter hopelessness.

Edit (Having checked text):
Wunderlicher Alter,
Soll ich mit dir geh'n?
Willst zu meinen Liedern
Deine Leier dreh'n?

Strange old man,
shall I go with you?
Will you turn your hurdy-gurdy
to my songs?

Interesting that in his book about Winterreise Ian Bostridge refers to his superstition about the song:

"I bridle at "Der Leiermann" in rehearsal. It seems best to leave it out and await the inspiration of the moment."

I like his pointing to the "kinship between Schubert's hurdy-gurdy man and Dylan's tambourine man".
I have always assumed the tambourine man to be a wandering musician leading those who encounter him to an escape via drugs rather than death. "In the jingle jangle morning I'll come following you". Both songs seem to have a circular, going somewhere but nowhere sort of melody.

[LMcD]

I don't think anyone not knowing Winterreise would be much encouraged to explore its wonders. And whether or not Pears voice is to your liking, no mention at all of the Pears/Britten recording was an insult. Especially to Britten - "the worlds's greatest accompanist" according to a survey of leading accompanists some years ago. I was lucky enough to hear them perform this 'live' at Aldebourg. A frustrating BAL for me.

Is Aldebourg anywhere near Aldeburgh?

[Lordgeous]

Ooops! Yes, very near, Just along the coaust!

[Constantbee]

That applies to abstract nouns that denote concepts, ideas, and qualities. (love = die Liebe, life = das Leben, capitalism = der Kapitalismus). That rule would not apply to Winterreise here since it refers to a specific journey and not a generalised concept. This would be "Das Reisen", ie travel in general. Also, it is poetry, where you can say what you like.

Thanks for that valuable point, Gurnemanz, and there may be yet more to this question than meets the eye. What is the philosophical nuance of the title without the use of the definite article which would otherwise be ‘die’, the feminine form, and so ‘Die Winterreise’? After some digging around for suggestions I’m most convinced by the idea that this is a story rather than a journey, therefore we are invited to focus less on the geographical expedition as evidenced by the lyrics than for the interior, reflective journey of self-examination. That’s not to say that the changing scenery isn’t interesting, it’s just, well, maybe not the more significant thing about the song cycle.

If the you prefer the changing scenery, the BBC4 broadcast of baritone Benjamin Appl and pianist James Baillieu ‘reimagining Schubert's song cycle Winterreise in the wintry setting of an Alpine landscape’, first aired on 11 December 2022, is still available on BBC iPlayer. I can remember sitting down to watch it after an exhausting day and feeling better. Just for a moment I didn’t begrudge having to renew our TV licence. In fact, now that we’ve finally worked out how to get the telly to play through the speakers I’ll might watch it again.

The only version I own is the DG Fischer-Dieskau/Baremboim. I would like to hear the Gerhaher, though. Haven’t listened to the RR discussion but will do when I get round to it.

[LMcD]

Thanks for that valuable point, Gurnemanz, and there may be yet more to this question than meets the eye. What is the philosophical nuance of the title without the use of the definite article which would otherwise be ‘die’, the feminine form, and so ‘Die Winterreise’? After some digging around for suggestions I’m most convinced by the idea that this is a story rather than a journey, therefore we are invited to focus less on the geographical expedition as evidenced by the lyrics than for the interior, reflective journey of self-examination. That’s not to say that the changing scenery isn’t interesting, it’s just, well, maybe not the more significant thing about the song cycle.

If the you prefer the changing scenery, the BBC4 broadcast of baritone Benjamin Appl and pianist James Baillieu ‘reimagining Schubert's song cycle Winterreise in the wintry setting of an Alpine landscape’, first aired on 11 December 2022, is still available on BBC iPlayer. I can remember sitting down to watch it after an exhausting day and feeling better. Just for a moment I didn’t begrudge having to renew our TV licence. In fact, now that we’ve finally worked out how to get the telly to play through the speakers I’ll might watch it again.

The only version I own is the DG Fischer-Dieskau/Baremboim. I would like to hear the Gerhaher, though. Haven’t listened to the RR discussion but will do when I get round to it.

Is it possible that 'Winterreise' denotes any or every winter journey, whereas the addition of the definite article would denote one particular journey?

[french frank]

Is it possible that 'Winterreise' denotes any or every winter journey, whereas the addition of the definite article would denote one particular journey?

I wonder whether the lack of article, definite or indefinite, is not to suggest a literal, physical journey (which would have a beginning and an end) in the snow and ice as much as the abstract, the state of mind? As you might say just Suffering or Agony.

[kernelbogey]

I wonder whether the lack of article, definite or indefinite, is not to suggest a literal, physical journey (which would have a beginning and an end) in the snow and ice as much as the abstract, the state of mind? As you might say just Suffering or Agony.

Schubert's friends were appalled at the bleakness of the work when he played and sang it through to them. My suggestion above that the Wanderer goes forward with the Hurdy-Gurdy man towards death would tie in with an underlying intention (whether or not conscious) that the journey (Reise) is that of the journey through life towards death. Schubert was seriously ill and must have known that he was dying at the time of composition.

[french frank]

Schubert's friends were appalled at the bleakness of the work when he played and sang it through to them. My suggestion above that the Wanderer goes forward with the Hurdy-Gurdy man towards death would tie in with an underlying intention (whether or not conscious) that the journey (Reise) is that of the journey through life towards death. Schubert was seriously ill and must have known that he was dying at the time of composition.

That's how I see it. The idea of a 'journey' gives a narrative structure to the separate poems, but the words are those of Wihelm Müller and he called his work Winterreise. I'm sure this has been worked over many times though it could be that it was Schubert's music that added his personal 'story' to the work and his friends would have known his condition and state of mind. This is Müller's text .

The internet seems to have contradictory views on whether Müller's poems appeared as Winterreise or Die Winterreise. Judged by quantity, Die Winterreise seems to prevail.

[AuntDaisy]

The internet seems to have contradictory views on whether Müller's poems appeared as Winterreise or Die Winterreise. Judged by quantity, Die Winterreise seems to prevail.

Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau's 1971 "Auf den Spuren der Schubert-Lieder" has "Winterreise" (p290-300), but Whitton's English translation repeatedly has "Die Winterreise".
Given the choice, I'd go with DFD...

Here's my scan of page 290 from the 1976 Bärenreiter reprint for comparison with Whitton's translation. (Copyright fair use - for discussion.)


Disclaimer: My CSE German isn't really up to the task.

[Pulcinella]

Late to this thread; as admitted in my profile, German Lieder leave me cold (pun intended in this case).
But for completeness (and Alison's peace of mind), the BBC MM CD offering (Volume 20, Number 6; still in its shrinkwrap) is by Henk Neven (baritone) and Hans Eijsackers (piano), and it looks like it was released to coincide with R3's Schubert week in March 2012, though it was recorded in November 2010 at The Warehouse, Waterloo, London.
I also have on the shelves (from when my partner's collection was assimilated into mine) a version by DFD and Brendel, which seems to be nla, though I see a reference to Brendel in the discussion above.