BaL 9.12.23 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 8

[LHC]

I once attended a LPO/Tennstedt Bruckner 8 in the RFH where he stood in for an ailing Jochum. How about that for a substitution?

Although I sadly wasn't there to experience it in person, Carlos Kleiber's one and only concert in London was as a substitute for Karl Bohm conducting the LSO. I think that one probably takes the prize for best substitution.

Most of the memorable substitutes I have seen have been at the opera - Siegfried Jerusalem standing in for Warren Ellsworth as Parsifal for ENO, Juan Diego Florez appearing as a substitute in a performance of L'Italiana in Algeri in Vienna and stealing the show, Rolando Villazon at his peak doing the same subbing for a Chinese tenor in La Boheme at Covent Garden (a substitution that made him the first tenor since Caruso to sing both the Duke in Rigoletto and Rodolfo in the same week at the Opera House).

Back on topic, and the Tennstedt Bruckner 8 is a favourite of mine as well.

[HighlandDougie]

Wow - how interesting! Was it?

I hadn’t intended to listen to The Blustering One’s BAL due to local persona non grata regulations and came here to find out which was selected - but maybe I’ll have to try and hear it.

The Tennstedt studio version has always been my ‘go-to’ performance and I’ve hardly ever found anyone who agrees, notably among critics.



I think it is!

You'll just have to grit your teeth. "Blustering"? Not this morning - as it's a word I would more associate with someone who doesn't really know what they are talking about and, like our former PM, adopts that approach to try and disguise the fact. Tom wasn't very good at articulating his argument - in essence, that Bruckner interpretation isn't just a matter of maximising orchestral beauty and monumental climaxes but that his music has the power to disturb/perturb. I'm thinking of his comparison of Christian Thielemann (whose Bruckner leaves me cold, I must admit) with Tennstedt. The word, "fragility", was used more than once (I think) but it seemed apposite to what he was trying to argue. Occasional inarticulateness aside, well worth a listen, I would say.

[Nick Armstrong]

You'll just have to grit your teeth. "Blustering"? Not this morning - as it's a word I would more associate with someone who doesn't really know what they are talking about and, like our former PM, adopts that approach to try and disguise the fact. Tom wasn't very good at articulating his argument - in essence, that Bruckner interpretation isn't just a matter of maximising orchestral beauty and monumental climaxes but that his music has the power to disturb/perturb. I'm thinking of his comparison of Christian Thielemann (whose Bruckner leaves me cold, I must admit) with Tennstedt. The word, "fragility", was used more than once (I think) but it seemed apposite to what he was trying to argue. Occasional inarticulateness aside, well worth a listen, I would say.

Thanks.

I remember how shocked I was at how far wide of the mark I thought the much-vaunted recording late in his career by Karajan with the VPO (still touted as “glorious” etc etc) which I hastened to return to the shop having been taken in by reviews…

[LMcD]

An interesting broadcast. Tom Service seemed unable to properly articulate his ideas, I couldn't quite grasp his argument and that was his fault, not mine.

Some of what he said did accord with something that in my opinion, is true of this work and Bruckner's art; that it was, at the time, 'new modern music' bending the normal rules of harmony and form, really challenging the contemporary thinking - Bruckner the modernist. The performance that gets closest to that is the live Barbirolli Halle RFH performance of May 1970. Placed in that context, Barbirolli's performance is supreme. I think he mistook Tennstedt's performance as something in that vein without understanding the context.

The Tennstedt has never really grabbed me, so I shall remain happy with HvK, Wand, Giulini, Bohm, Celibidache, Goodall and Barbirolli.

Edit: And of course the amazing WF '44!

I think Tom's problem is that he has so many ideas that he can't get them out fast enough. During the programme in which he and Amanda Vickery retraced some of Holst's and RVW's walks he was much less frenetic. but this was, at least for me, a rare exception to his customary intense, high-speed exuberance (It's going to be a wild night at the Proms!').

[Nick Armstrong]

"Blustering"? Not this morning - as it's a word I would more associate with someone who doesn't really know what they are talking about...

Point taken… Perhaps “Babbling” would be a fairer word.

[LMcD]

Point taken… Perhaps “Babbling” would be a fairer word.

I'm afraid I can't brook his babbling.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Bruckner died in 1896 long before Nazism existed so it's fair to say that he is being saddled with Nazi nonsense.

The facts regarding the wartime VPO are by now well known and well documented and I'm well aware of them.

These are two entirely different issues and I have a problem with them being combined in such a way as to detract from a great musical performance and to defame Bruckner with the 'Nazi' tag.

After 80 years we should be mature enough to accept that history cannot be altered. The circumstances of the recording were what they were and nothing will ever change that. We should be able to listen to this Bruckner 8 as a great performance, while bearing in mind the historical circumstances prevailing at the time.

You didn’t listen to the BAL and I don’t think you’re reading the posts accurately . Bruckner is emphatically not being “saddled with Nazi nonsense.” All Tom Service did was draw attention to the circumstances of the VPO Furtwangler performance which was played by an orchestra of which 50 per cent were members of the Nazi party. It was both a great performance and one produced by some people with rather unpleasant loyalties. No surprise there - throughout history great art has been produced by artists who are completely contemptible as human beings. As it happens Bruckner wasn’t one of them.

[cloughie]

I'm afraid I can't brook his babbling.

Not even in a shady nook?

[LMcD]

Not even in a shady nook?

'Peers' sadly into his pint of Proper Job, shaking his head.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Wow - how interesting! Was it?

I hadn’t intended to listen to The Blustering One’s BAL due to local persona non grata regulations and came here to find out which was selected - but maybe I’ll have to try and hear it.

The Tennstedt studio version has always been my ‘go-to’ performance and I’ve hardly ever found anyone who agrees, notably among critics.



I think it is!

TS seems to value “wildness”- , a sense of responding instinctively - and sensitivity of tempo variation over traditional massive solidity - cathedrals of sound etc. So I guess the question is does Tennstedt achieve this ? It wasn’t as evident in the clips as the extraordinary Furtwangler VPO performance. But clips are only clips …

[HighlandDougie]

My point about TS was just a minor issue and I wish I hadn't caused a distraction. The main thing I was on about is that B8 was radical for its time and the conductor might reflect this, and not carry out the task of a curator of a beautiful artefact, as gorgeous as the outcome often is, so done.

Not a minor issue at all but that is in essence what TS was trying to articulate to listeners.

[Nick Armstrong]

I'm afraid I can't brook his babbling.

Good one, LMcD!

[cloughie]

You didn’t listen to the BAL and I don’t think you’re reading the posts accurately . Bruckner is emphatically not being “saddled with Nazi nonsense.” All Tom Service did was draw attention to the circumstances of the VPO Furtwangler performance which was played by an orchestra of which 50 per cent were members of the Nazi party. It was both a great performance and one produced by some people with rather unpleasant loyalties. No surprise there - throughout history great art has been produced by artists who are completely contemptible as human beings. As it happens Bruckner wasn’t one of them.

…and probably in choirs of which forum are members you do not have to share the politics of those you are singing alongside to share the music you make together.

[Goon525]

wasn’t the winner his EMI studio recording ?

Yes, sorry, deficient memory - or not listening carefully enough.

[Barbirollians]

Thanks.

I remember how shocked I was at how far wide of the mark I thought the much-vaunted recording late in his career by Karajan with the VPO (still touted as “glorious” etc etc) which I hastened to return to the shop having been taken in by reviews…

I liked that late HvK it’s an experience even if not a recording I would wish to hear very often . I have just taken delivery of a copy of the live Kubelik recording that Richard Osborne praised in his BAL about 10 years ago.

I also listened to the former winner the Giulini on Testament - that’s a very fine performance too.