BaL 9.12.23 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 8

[Pianoman]

Absolutely. Barbirolli is the one to go for. He gets it over and done with in 74 minutes and whisks through the hopelessly episodic, meandering finale in 22.07, which almost stops it falling apart.

Haitink's 1969 recording is my favourite for the same reason, except he gets through the finale in 20'47 !! Astonishing to think that old Bernie was once a speed merchant....

[Ein Heldenleben]

An interesting and different approach taken by Tom Service, the requirement for wildness eliminating many fine versions. (Karajan got two excerpts in the first movement, both well received, then never mentioned again.) I was at the Tennstedt RFH performance, loved him as a conductor, but a bit surprised that a live RFH performance by a London orchestra could win out over so many beautiful Vienna performances. As for Furtwangler, it did sound thrilling, but I have good reason to be uncomfortable with the whole idea of listening to 1944 VPO, and frankly in any case need better sound, more dynamic range. I know not everyone will agree.

Although Tom is sometimes deliberately contrarian to generate a bit of journalistic interest in this case he made a valid point. The middle of the road “cathedrals of sound “ approach with little tempo variation within the musical paragraphs dominates a lot of performances. The extra tempo variation even with8n a phrase that Furtwangler employed reminded a bit of a Wagner Ring performance with RW’s constant tempi instructions. Thrilling but not to everyone’s taste. I am not sure how “wild “ the Tennstedt is - must listen to the complete performance.
I think Tom handled the war / Nazi background to the VPO Furtwangler well. Wasn’t Bruckner also Hitler’s favourite composer? I’m never sure how much the VPO have done to atone for their contemptible behaviour in WW 2 . There is an unfortunate tendency in Austria to portray their wartime selves as much victims as any one else . That is simply not in accord with historical fact.
Back to the Bruckner . I’ve listened over the years to mainly mainstream performances Wand , Jochum, Haitink , Solti , Barenboim . I wonder whether Tennstedt in toto will be as good as Tom claims ?

[richardfinegold]

Haitink's 1969 recording is my favourite for the same reason, except he gets through the finale in 20'47 !! Astonishing to think that old Bernie was once a speed merchant....

Agreed. It is the only recording that I turn to these days due to its brevity. His Third from the same era is similarly swift

[richardfinegold]

Although Tom is sometimes deliberately contrarian to generate a bit of journalistic interest in this case he made a valid point. The middle of the road “cathedrals of sound “ approach with little tempo variation within the musical paragraphs dominates a lot of performances. The extra tempo variation even with8n a phrase that Furtwangler employed reminded a bit of a Wagner Ring performance with RW’s constant tempi instructions. Thrilling but not to everyone’s taste. I am not sure how “wild “ the Tennstedt is - must listen to the complete performance.
I think Tom handled the war / Nazi background to the VPO Furtwangler well. Wasn’t Bruckner also Hitler’s favourite composer? I’m never sure how much the VPO have done to atone for their contemptible behaviour in WW 2 . There is an unfortunate tendency in Austria to portray their wartime selves as much victims as any one else . That is simply not in accord with historical fact.
Back to the Bruckner . I’ve listened over the years to mainly mainstream performances Wand , Jochum, Haitink , Solti , Barenboim . I wonder whether Tennstedt in toto will be as good as Tom claims ?

I’m pretty sure that Wagner was Der Fuhrer favorite. Bruckner was lionized by the Nazi Party for being quintessentially Germanic sounding (whatever that means), perhaps to be a counterweight to his contemporary Mahler, who of course struck those Aryan sensibilities as being intolerably Semitic. The Nazis also tried to make Mozart some sort of proto Aryan, about 140 years after his demise

[Petrushka]

Poor Bruckner being saddled with the Nazi nonsense. The 1944 Furtwangler was the first Bruckner I ever heard (on a 2 LP Unicorn set) and I took to it immediately. I have it now on both Music & Arts and DG. Any better remastering anybody?

There's nothing we can do to alter historical fact so the Furtwangler is a fascinating listen as a great performance with the wartime circumstances there in mind.

I once attended a LPO/Tennstedt Bruckner 8 in the RFH where he stood in for an ailing Jochum. How about that for a substitution?

[smittims]

Pretty good. It ranks, in my experience, with a young Nigel Kennedy standing in at short notice in Elgar's violin concerto at the RFH in 1980 or '81, and a certain Mr. Thomas Allen standing in at eve shorter notice as Don Giovanni one wonderful night.

This discussion has reminded me that the first time I heard Bruckner 8 it was Barbirolli conducting, in the Free Trade Hall c.1971.

[richardfinegold]

Poor Bruckner being saddled with the Nazi nonsense. The 1944 Furtwangler was the first Bruckner I ever heard (on a 2 LP Unicorn set) and I took to it immediately. I have it now on both Music & Arts and DG. Any better remastering anybody?

There's nothing we can do to alter historical fact so the Furtwangler is a fascinating listen as a great performance with the wartime circumstances there in mind.

I once attended a LPO/Tennstedt Bruckner 8 in the RFH where he stood in for an ailing Jochum. How about that for a substitution?

This wasn’t a Furtwangler discussion, and a rehash of the discussion as to whether was WF was a closet Nazi. It’s safe to say that WF would have promoted Bruckner regardless of prevailing political climate. It is however historically correct to say that Goebbels and others that determined that Nazi Cultural agenda promoted Bruckner. I would no more blame Bruckner than I would Mozart for this

[visualnickmos]

wasn’t the winner his EMI studio recording ?

Yes, I believe it was. His Berlin recording (live) is wonderful. I don't think it was graced with a mention.

[Petrushka]

This wasn’t a Furtwangler discussion, and a rehash of the discussion as to whether was WF was a closet Nazi.

I didn't say it was nor did I make any such point about Furtwangler. Please read my post again.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Poor Bruckner being saddled with the Nazi nonsense. The 1944 Furtwangler was the first Bruckner I ever heard (on a 2 LP Unicorn set) and I took to it immediately. I have it now on both Music & Arts and DG. Any better remastering anybody?

There's nothing we can do to alter historical fact so the Furtwangler is a fascinating listen as a great performance with the wartime circumstances there in mind.

I once attended a LPO/Tennstedt Bruckner 8 in the RFH where he stood in for an ailing Jochum. How about that for a substitution?

Bruckner isn’t being “saddled with Nazi nonsense” . Did you listen to the programme ? In the review TS quite properly refers to the circumstances of the 1944 VPO recording , the fact that half the orchestra were Nazi party members; Jewish orchestra members has been expelled ; and some had died in the camps. In point of fact I suspect Lehar was Hitler’s favourite. But this is an apposite and reasoned article on the whole issue,

https://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2014/03/bruckners-music-not-a-political-problem-for-mehta-israel-philharmonic/

[Nick Armstrong]

wasn’t the winner his EMI studio recording ?

Wow - how interesting! Was it?

I hadn’t intended to listen to The Blustering One’s BAL due to local persona non grata regulations and came here to find out which was selected - but maybe I’ll have to try and hear it.

The Tennstedt studio version has always been my ‘go-to’ performance and I’ve hardly ever found anyone who agrees, notably among critics.

I wonder whether Tennstedt in toto will be as good as Tom claims ?

I think it is!

[Pulcinella]

Wow - how interesting! Was it?

I hadn’t intended to listen to The Blustering One’s BAL due to local persona non grata regulations and came here to find out which was selected - but maybe I’ll have to.

The Tennstedt studio version has always been my ‘go-to’ performance and I’ve hardly ever found anyone who agrees, notably among critics.

Tom's choice:
London Philharmonic/Klaus Tennstedt
Warner Classics 3817612

[Nick Armstrong]

I once attended a LPO/Tennstedt Bruckner 8 in the RFH where he stood in for an ailing Jochum. How about that for a substitution?

Blimey!

[Petrushka]

Bruckner isn’t being “saddled with Nazi nonsense” . Did you listen to the programme ? In the review TS quite properly refers to the circumstances of the 1944 VPO recording , the fact that half the orchestra were Nazi party members; Jewish orchestra members has been expelled ; and some had died in the camps. In point of fact I suspect Lehar was Hitler’s favourite. But this is an apposite and reasoned article on the whole issue,

https://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2...-philharmonic/

Bruckner died in 1896 long before Nazism existed so it's fair to say that he is being saddled with Nazi nonsense.

The facts regarding the wartime VPO are by now well known and well documented and I'm well aware of them.

These are two entirely different issues and I have a problem with them being combined in such a way as to detract from a great musical performance and to defame Bruckner with the 'Nazi' tag.

After 80 years we should be mature enough to accept that history cannot be altered. The circumstances of the recording were what they were and nothing will ever change that. We should be able to listen to this Bruckner 8 as a great performance, while bearing in mind the historical circumstances prevailing at the time.

[Nick Armstrong]

Tom's choice:
London Philharmonic/Klaus Tennstedt
Warner Classics 3817612

Thanks. Yes that’s the Abbey Road recording.