BaL 25.11.23 - Ravel: Le tombeau de Couperin

[Ein Heldenleben]

I'd echo your phrase "strangely compelling", for sure. My feeling is, that listening to very early cylinder recordings often misleads researchers, who tend to ignore the fact that these were usually made of venerated older singers, past their prime. What's undoubtedly right, is the portamento - and most of all, the bel canto focus on the words dictating tonal variation and the shaping of phrases - that felt spot on, something it would be wonderful to build on, though perhaps with firmer and more tonally alluring voices than Koen van Stade today.

Yes it was the bel canto element that appealed to me. I suppose the clue is in the Italian. I liked the freedom of it all. Later they played a John McCormack recording - now that’s a voice that could have bought that sort of sensibility to Dichterliebe perhaps.

[Master Jacques]

Yes it was the bel canto element that appealed to me. I suppose the clue is in the Italian. I liked the freedom of it all. Later they played a John McCormack recording - now that’s a voice that could have bought that sort of sensibility to Dichterliebe perhaps.

You bet! Listening to him just now in Bax's 'The White Peace', you get precisely that unfashionable rhythmic freedom - tied to the needs of the text in the moment, rather than the strict note-lengths of the score. All of which results in compelling, unforgettable singing, when it goes along with a beautiful and distinctive vocal presence. As Clinton might have put it, "it's about the words, stupid!"

[Master Jacques]

Coming back to the thread, I'd add that it's the bel canto sense which has gone missing from much of today's pianistic fashion. Its loss results in these pristine, accurate and pretty-much forgettable recordings beloved of critics who spend too much time chalking up fidelity to the score, and not enough time using their ears. Thus, some limiting aspects of this morning's Ravel BaL.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Coming back to the thread, I'd add that it's the bel canto sense which has gone missing from much of today's pianistic fashion. Its loss results in these pristine, accurate and pretty-much forgettable recordings beloved of critics who spend too much time chalking up fidelity to the score, and not enough time using their ears. Thus, some limiting aspects of this morning's Ravel BaL.

So who are the great cantabile pianists? There is so much poor piano recording around it’s often difficult to judge. One that springs to mind is Lupu , Arrau ? , Perahia perhaps . None of them tend to play much Ravel do (did ) they. There’s so much underpedalling these days I guess because with modern Steinways in a big hall it all degenerates into a blur . The Hewitt being as example of that underpedalling ( in my view ).

[gradus]

Funnily enough I listened to the Chamayou just now as part of his near complete Ravel box set. I think the French critics chose well and the recording sounds fine to me but I was only listening via a Bluetooth speaker.

[Master Jacques]

So who are the great cantabile pianists? There is so much poor piano recording around it’s often difficult to judge. One that springs to mind is Lupu , Arrau ? , Perahia perhaps . None of them tend to play much Ravel do (did ) they. There’s so much underpedalling these days I guess because with modern Steinways in a big hall it all degenerates into a blur . The Hewitt being as example of that underpedalling ( in my view ).

Off the top of my head, I'd want to add Lipatti, Rubinstein and Cherkassky (a personal favourite, though no Ravel specialist) to your highly agreeable shortlist. The first two, though, were great Ravel players, and I rather think I might take Rubinstein's Valses Nobles... to my desert island. His Tombeau is light years removed from the bland smoothies we heard this morning. Sound quality? Well, it hardly matters with pianists like these, who made the instrument really "sing".

[Sir Velo]

Currently listening to Bavouzet, on Micky D's recommendation. There is an elan to the playing which is missing from many of the performances featured in BAL, and the historic instrument is a delight to hear. One of the many criticisms one may level at the current BAL approach is that it enforces the notion that there is nothing worth hearing before the millenium, and as such deprives new listeners of the opportunity of judging the merits of earlier performances. . Are we supposed, therefore, to believe that all those pianists who grew up in the French tradition - eg Collard, Lortie, Thibaudet, Roge et al, to say nothing of earlier generations, are worthless? Clearly BAL is now very much a marketing tool for the record companies to parade their latest hotshots. Caveat emptor indeed.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Currently listening to Bavouzet, on Micky D's recommendation. There is an elan to the playing which is missing from many of the performances featured in BAL, and the historic instrument is a delight to hear. One of the many criticisms one may level at the current BAL approach is that it enforces the notion that there is nothing worth hearing before the millenium, and as such deprives new listeners of the opportunity of judging the merits of earlier performances. . Are we supposed, therefore, to believe that all those pianists who grew up in the French tradition - eg Collard, Lortie, Thibaudet, Roge et al, to say nothing of earlier generations, are worthless? Clearly BAL is now very much a marketing tool for the record companies to parade their latest hotshots. Caveat emptor indeed.

Clearly BAL don’t deem Lortie “worthless” as he very nearly won!

[Sir Velo]

Clearly BAL don’t deem Lortie “worthless” as he very nearly won!

LOL - shows how attentively I was listening! Glad to hear it, as the Lortie was my introduction to the piece "back in the day".

[Ein Heldenleben]

LOL - shows how attentively I was listening! Glad to hear it, as the Lortie was my introduction to the piece "back in the day".

On the evidence of the clips I think he just shaded it over Perianes. His piano was also better recorded .

[Lordgeous]

No mention of Perlemuter?

[Ein Heldenleben]

No mention of Perlemuter?

I missed a section near the beginning but the only older recordings I heard were Haas and a questionably attributed Ravel piano roll.

[Pulcinella]

No mention of Perlemuter?

There might have been, but only en passant.

For Alison's benefit, Perlemuter features in the BBC MM release (Vol 11, No 10): a BBC Studio recording from 21 March 1970.

[silvestrione]

So who are the great cantabile pianists? There is so much poor piano recording around it’s often difficult to judge. One that springs to mind is Lupu , Arrau ? , Perahia perhaps . None of them tend to play much Ravel do (did ) they. There’s so much underpedalling these days I guess because with modern Steinways in a big hall it all degenerates into a blur . The Hewitt being as example of that underpedalling ( in my view ).

Rubenstein and Richter for me, are the great cantabile pianists, just as Schnabel and Arrau are the great 'chordal' pianists! Rubenstein only recorded the 'Forlane' from Le Tombeau, as far as I can see. Pity. (Not that it is a cantabile-needing piece particularly, but he had something to offer in French music...)

[MickyD]

Currently listening to Bavouzet, on Micky D's recommendation. There is an elan to the playing which is missing from many of the performances featured in BAL, and the historic instrument is a delight to hear. One of the many criticisms one may level at the current BAL approach is that it enforces the notion that there is nothing worth hearing before the millenium, and as such deprives new listeners of the opportunity of judging the merits of earlier performances. . Are we supposed, therefore, to believe that all those pianists who grew up in the French tradition - eg Collard, Lortie, Thibaudet, Roge et al, to say nothing of earlier generations, are worthless? Clearly BAL is now very much a marketing tool for the record companies to parade their latest hotshots. Caveat emptor indeed.

I went for the Bavouzet to add the piano version to my collection, because it received so many glowing reviews. The use of the 1901 Steinway came as a delightful surprise!