BaL 28.10.23 - Schubert Four Impromptus Op.142 (D935)

[RichardB]

I wasn't thinking of 'argument'...'holding water'.... prove'...'gender'...sexist' etc. It's just that those two pianists seemed to me to reveal somethignng in the music I had not heard from a male pianist and I wondered if there was a feminine way of playing Schubert

And you have your answer I think! Plus, "not thinking" about sexism is very often the problem... Pardon me, I'm not picking an argument here, I just can't let such things go without comment.

[richardfinegold]

If in a reductionist view of the world a legato cantabile style of playing is feminine ( eg, Myra Hess but also Stephen Kovachevich ) and a loud flashy high intensity style ( Horowitz , Janis ) is masculine I prefer the former. Thing is though Hess could play loud and Horowitz could float a cantabile line when he wanted to like no one else.
It’s all nonsense really.

Yuja Wang and Annie Fisher are two female pianists that come to mind who are probably known for their power rather than their delicacy, although pace Alpine’s earlier comments, Wang plays the shorter cadenza in Rachmaninov 3. Other wise, considering that her hands are not meat hooks, she plays a lot of Rachmaninov and other barn burners.
To go back to Smittens initial statement, he picked a pair of female pianists who were not known for storming the heavens, but more for playing legato, canticle, etc as others, particularly Alpie, have elucidated. Was there a time when female pianists were expected to have these qualities? Certainly the less aggressive style would have fit the pigeon hole that women of past times were supposed to be the weaker, submissive sex and were not supposed to compete in many fields with men. Those expectations have long been quashed, and with them have gone the expectations that female musicians must sound prissy and dainty. Edith Piaf had long ago given way to Janis Joplin and Chrissy Hyde, and Martha Argerich, Wang, Katia Buniatshvili , etc are not branded with a scarlet A ( for aggressive ).
Except that we can have it all, can’t we? There will always be an audience fhat values the chanteuse (Diana Krall, Taylor Swift) versus the more Amazonian Patti Smith type, and Pianists of whatever gender that sound more like Beatrice Rana and less like Marta Argerich will also have their place at the Piano Bench

[smittims]

I have that Bishop-Kovacevich/ Argerich disc, Mandryka, and I was struck by your reminiscence. When some years ago Kovacevich re-recorded the Diabelli Variations, a man I know called it a very masculine performance. So there you go...!

I really think it too 'woke' to call 'sexist' a suggestion that female pianists may reveal something in Schubert. It reminds me of 'Woman's Hour the other day when a remark that a particular woman was 'good looking' was slammed as 'misogynist'. Whatever next?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I would love to know what “different angle “ female interpreters bring. It strikes me that any successful interpretation of a piece of music involves the synthesis of the masculine and feminine - in so far as those very loose terms can be defined. Are octave and FF block chord passages masculine ? Are floating cantabile melodies feminine ? It’s all a bit of a nonsense isn’t it?

I can’t see how it can make any difference. Heifetz was a man, but the closest I’ve ever heard to the Heifetz sound was a female violinist in Brixham, Devon. She doesn’t try to emulate the late master. It’s just the way she likes to play.

[Mandryka]

I have that Bishop-Kovacevich/ Argerich disc, Mandryka, and I was struck by your reminiscence. When some years ago Kovacevich re-recorded the Diabelli Variations, a man I know called it a very masculine performance. So there you go...!

I really think it too 'woke' to call 'sexist' a suggestion that female pianists may reveal something in Schubert. It reminds me of 'Woman's Hour the other day when a remark that a particular woman was 'good looking' was slammed as 'misogynist'. Whatever next?

It's too big a discussion. In particular, I couldn't begin to say whether masculinity and femininity actually mean anything -- either biologically or socially -- which can be prised away from sex, and then applied to music. I'm out of my depth.

I was going to post this yesterday, to lighten things up, but thought the better of it. Here goes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnFAOEZboq4&t=52s&ab_channel=Cheprd

[RichardB]

I really think it too 'woke' to call 'sexist' a suggestion that female pianists may reveal something in Schubert

I thought you might. Woke: "aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)" (Merriam-Webster)

[Mandryka]

Did Emil Gilels really record it all or just the first one? His name is in the list in the first post. His recording of the first of the set is worth a listen I think.

I listened to an unavailable recording today, Agustin Anievas. It’s a pity it’s never been commercially transferred - it’s very well judged IMO.

I also listened to Trudelies Leonhardt. She takes nearly 15 minutes for the first impromptu - that’s a record possibly. Is there a tempo indication in the score?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Did Emil Gilels really record it all or just the first one? His name is in the list in the first post. His recording of the first of the set is worth a listen I think.

I listened to an unavailable recording today, Agustin Anievas. It’s a pity it’s never been commercially transferred - it’s very well judged IMO.

I also listened to Trudelies Leonhardt. She takes nearly 15 minutes for the first impromptu - that’s a record possibly. Is there a tempo indication in the score?

Yes it’s Allegro moderato in the Henle Urtext .

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I thought you might. Woke: "aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)" (Merriam-Webster)

Indeed. "Woke" is frequently thrown around as though it were an insult, whereas it is in fact a compliment.

[Kamisama]

I thought you might. Woke: "aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)" (Merriam-Webster)

2 disapproving : politically liberal or progressive (as in matters of racial and social justice) especially in a way that is considered unreasonable or extreme
(Merriam-Webster)

[manchester0826]

Sokolov’s tempos seemed too slow for me at first, but then began to make sense over time. And his lyrical beautiful sound and meticulous attention to detail are astonishing in a live performance. Pires is always wonderful, albeit sometimes harsh and too impetuous for Schubert. The newest release in this list is by Gerardo Teissonniere, which includes the first set Op.90 as well, all beautifully played with long singing lines throughout and great attention to the score with tempos not as slow as Sokolov’s but with great understanding of the music and style. Lupu has always been a classic favorite, but by comparison to newer recordings is beginning to sound “old”. Perahia’s sound is gorgeous but his tempos are too fast in both F minors for my preference.

[RichardB]

2 disapproving : politically liberal or progressive (as in matters of racial and social justice) especially in a way that is considered unreasonable or extreme
(Merriam-Webster)

I wondered whether anyone would add this bit! - "Considered unreasonable or extreme" by whom is the question. Looking at current affairs, it would seem the answer is principally right-wing populists, as the people who most frequently use the word as an insult. I don't know about anyone else, but I would have no problem being considered unreasonable or extreme by Suella Braverman or Donald Trump.

Returning to Schubert though: all the recorded performances of these pieces (and his other piano music) I spend most time with are the intimate and even introverted ones (this is also where having the period instrument helps). This music doesn't seem to me to belong in thousand-seat concert halls but in surroundings where you can listen into the resonances of the instrument.

[vinteuil]

2 disapproving : politically liberal or progressive (as in matters of racial and social justice) especially in a way that is considered unreasonable or extreme
(Merriam-Webster)

... 'woke', when used pejoratively, seems to be the current equivalent of the earlier "political correctness gone mad"

[manchester0826]

https://www.for3.org/forums/forum/cl...11#post1286811 Right on the mark regarding Schubert’s intimate quality. True, his music was written for a very different instrument than the relative monstrosity his music is nowadays recorded on. But would he have loved the gentle, subtle treatment and nuances modern pianos can also produce?

[RichardB]

would he have loved the gentle, subtle treatment and nuances modern pianos can also produce?

Maybe. Nobody will ever know. Personally I tend to raise an eyebrow or two at sentences that begin "But surely the composer would have preferred..." - we just have to go on the information available to us. To me it's significant that Schiff has decided on an early 19th century instrument for his latest Schubert recordings. He writes in the liner notes of his recording of op.142 and other pieces about how he was "converted" from an initially highly sceptical position regarding the HIPP movement, and ends by saying that although he will continue to play Beethoven, Schubert and Mozart on "modern" pianos, the sound of the fortepiano will always be in the back of his mind.