BaL 28.10.23 - Schubert Four Impromptus Op.142 (D935)

[richardfinegold]

Still have Brendel on Vanguard and Philips and both suit me fine.

Brendel seems to have a feel for the music, doesn’t try to over interpret, and the Phillips recordings at least are the most natural sounding piano sound in my collection

[smittims]

I'm surprised at the amount of response to what was merely an impression I've had when listening to Imogen Cooper or Ingrid Haebler playing Schubert. It opens up a larger subject than I imagined, and as this is after all a thread about the interpretation of D935, a work I've known and loved since I heard Alfred Brendel's second recording in 1978, I'll confine myself , for now at any rate, to trying to amplify what I said, rather than go on to discuss your replies and what I saw as the manner in which they were made, let alone embarking on my other outrageous opinions (just don't get me going on feminism, the Olympic Games, the Elgin Marbles, the Slave Trade, etc. ).

I'm sure you understand that listening to music can be a subconscious process difficult to put into words. I felt that these two ladies (one of whom is sadly no longer with us) if asked, would say they weren't trying to play Schubert in a 'feminine way'. But I did feel that they revealed something in the music that I couldn't imagine a male pianist would. I'm not saying 'women are best'; it's quite likely that a man might show something in the music that a woman wouldn't .

As to whether one can guess from audio alone if a woman or a man is playing, I haven't considered that.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I'm surprised at the amount of response to what was merely an impression I've had when listening to Imogen Cooper or Ingrid Haebler playing Schubert. It opens up a larger subject than I imagined, and as this is after all a thread about the interpretation of D935, a work I've known and loved since I heard Alfred Brendel's second recording in 1978, I'll confine myself , for now at any rate, to trying to amplify what I said, rather than go on to discuss your replies and what I saw as the manner in which they were made, let alone embarking on my other outrageous opinions (just don't get me going on feminism, the Olympic Games, the Elgin Marbles, the Slave Trade, etc. ).

I'm sure you understand that listening to music can be a subconscious process difficult to put into words. I felt that these two ladies (one of whom is sadly no longer with us) if asked, would say they weren't trying to play Schubert in a 'feminine way'. But I did feel that they revealed something in the music that I couldn't imagine a male pianist would. I'm not saying 'women are best'; it's quite likely that a man might show something in the music that a woman wouldn't .

As to whether one can guess from audio alone if a woman or a man is playing, I haven't considered that.

What did they reveal in the music that a male pianist wouldn’t or couldn’t ? and indeed vice versa. I’m intrigued and a tad sceptical.

[smittims]

I can't put it precisely into words. It's not a matter of measurement or definition, more about touch and feeling, and the way women view the world differently from men, if you feel, as I often do , that 'men are from mars, women are from venus' . Now of course, if one thinks this is just a load of post-modernist tosh, then one won't agree.

I'm not laying this down as a new rule. I could be the only one in step.

[Pulcinella]

No male/female interpretation dilemma for BBC MM CD collectors: these impromptus don't yet feature.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I can't put it precisely into words. It's not a matter of measurement or definition, more about touch and feeling, and the way women view the world differently from men, if you feel, as I often do , that 'men are from mars, women are from venus' . Now of course, if one thinks this is just a load of post-modernist tosh, then one won't agree.

I'm not laying this down as a new rule. I could be the only one in step.

I do think that the “Men are from Mars “ thing is total tosh but I don’t necessarily dismiss the idea of a higher proportion of female pianists perhaps producing a different sound to the majority of male pianists. But it would be extremely difficult to “prove” this . I don’t think the sub- Horowitzian cult of hard driven virtuosity esp in chordal and octave playing found as much favour with women as men for example - maybe because they didn’t have the power, maybe because they didn’t like the sound.
It’s interesting that some female Soviet pianists used to tend to sound very different to their male equivalents - but that’s perhaps because they just played different repertoire. But I don’t think any of this applies to the Schubert Impromptus because they just don’t respond to a Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody approach. Mind you I’ve heard quite a few very loud and driven performances of the final F minor - a few are tempted to turn into a virtuoso plaything. I think more significant is the influence of female pianists especially as teachers - Myra Hess being an example - the emphasis on legato , cantabile etc.But then her teacher Matthay was a man.

[RichardB]

As to whether one can guess from audio alone if a woman or a man is playing, I haven't considered that.

Is that not however the crucial test, without which your argument holds no water? One might admire what Imogen Cooper or Ingrid Haebler bring to this music, but to suggest that this is due to their gender is sexist, depending as it does on a reductive view of “femininity”. As you no doubt know, most orchestral auditions are held with the candidate behind a screen and invisible to the jury, and my OH, who has been on many such juries, reports that there is no way of knowing the candidate’s gender in these circumstances.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Is that not however the crucial test, without which your argument holds no water? One might admire what Imogen Cooper or Ingrid Haebler bring to this music, but to suggest that this is due to their gender is sexist, depending as it does on a reductive view of “femininity”. As you no doubt know, most orchestral auditions are held with the candidate behind a screen and invisible to the jury, and my OH, who has been on many such juries, reports that there is no way of knowing the candidate’s gender in these circumstances.

If in a reductionist view of the world a legato cantabile style of playing is feminine ( eg, Myra Hess but also Stephen Kovachevich ) and a loud flashy high intensity style ( Horowitz , Janis ) is masculine I prefer the former. Thing is though Hess could play loud and Horowitz could float a cantabile line when he wanted to like no one else.
It’s all nonsense really.

[Mandryka]

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

Just reading through this discussion I had a memory, possibly a false one. It was the memory of an article or an interview with Kovacevich where he was talking about playing with Argerich. He said it was really hard to play with her because she was so spontaneous, as if she just was compelled to go off the rails of the score and the planning in rehearsal, and everyone else had to follow. He labelled this intuitive, instinctive, way of making music as "feminine" (I think) It may have been in the booklet to their recording of the Bartok two piano sonata, in may have been in a R3 interview years and years ago. Anyway, it may be a false memory.

I know there's a concept called "gender identity" and that your gender identity may or may not be the same as your assigned gender. I don't understand the concept very well, and a brief google didn't elucidate it much. But if you can have a gender identity -- that's to say a self image as man or woman or whatever -- then surely we can start to ask what that image is, and see whether it can be helpfully applied to a way of making music. So you might see yourself as a woman because you are fiery tempered and passionately helpful -- like Kundry. And hence Argerich's fiery passionate Liszt sonata may be described as feminine (as opposed to, let's say, . . . someone (don't like the music much so can't think of anyone!))

I wonder if there are any trans people who post here who can elucidate this for us.

If this way of think is worth developing, it's not that men play the impromptus differently from women, it's that there's a feminine and masculine way.

[RichardB]

it's not that men play the impromptus differently from women, it's that there's a feminine and masculine way.

If the latter adjectives are divorced from gender identity, what do they mean? There are not two ways of playing this music but for all practical purposes an infinite variety of ways. What is gained by shoehorning that variety into two ill-defined categories? (Incidentally, there are also very many ways of characterising one's gender, including of course not doing so.)

[CallMePaul]

I have Brendel (digital recording on CD but also his earliest recording for Vox on an old Turnabout LP) and Pires, both of course on modern instruments. However, I prefer to listen to Schubert's piano sonatas on period instruments, generally on Badura-Skoda's set. I am looking for a performance of the impromptus (both sets) on a fortepiano so I hope that Iain Burnside will include more than one fortepiano recording so that I can get some help in making a decision.

[Ein Heldenleben]

If the latter adjectives are divorced from gender identity, what do they mean? There are not two ways of playing this music but for all practical purposes an infinite variety of ways. What is gained by shoehorning that variety into two ill-defined categories? (Incidentally, there are also very many ways of characterising one's gender, including of course not doing so.)

Yes there are a thousand ways of playing them and a good pianist can switch from “masculine “ (brash , loud , showy ?) to “feminine” ( lyrical sensitive etc) in the space of a bar.

[Darloboy]

BaL can't seem to make up its mind whether to cover all of the Impromptus or just the individual sets. We have D 935 this time; we had D 899 last time, and we had D 899, D 935 and D 946 in 2003. Recommendations were as follows:

Sarah Walker (November 2003): First Choice for all 3 sets was Brendel on Vox; Modern Choice for D 899 and D 935 only was Uchida.
Robert Philip (April 2014 - D 899 only): Lupu. I recall that he also discussed Katin's period version.

[Barbirollians]

Perahia for me.

[smittims]

I wasn't thinking of 'argument'...'holding water'.... prove'...'gender'...sexist' etc. It's just that those two pianists seemed to me to reveal something in the music I had not heard from a male pianist and I wondered if there was a feminine way of playing Schubert ; I don't find it in Beethoven or Brahms. Chopin? I haven't looked into that.

I was struck by the way a simple impression was seized on so immediately and energetically. Maybe I touched a nerve in some way, inadvertently. If you see it as something to be analysed and refuted scientifically or biologically then that's your business; I wouldn't object. But it seems to me a very 20th-century thing to do. I like to think we can move on from that now. I think life is more interesting if some things are left unexplained, and I find this especially in music. .