BaL 14.10.23 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 8 in F Op.93

[pastoralguy]

I listened last nite. Wow, some sacred cows well and truly slaughtered! Having bought the Karajan 1977 set one Lp at a time as a teenager, I was amazed upon hearing the Klemperer set to discover that the Beethoven symphonies had wind and brass parts!

[Barbirollians]

RW chose Adam Fischer in Symphony No 1 and now this Jarvi which I don’t like -more about the sound than the music to my ears . I think Richard Wigmore is a more reliable guide in Haydn.

[Nick Armstrong]

It was Caliban who pointed out that excerpts from the Jarvi LvB cycle could often sound phenomenal only for the complete rendition to make less impact. This I feel is germane to the current discussion .

Sweet of you to remember, Alison - yes, listening to this BAL just now, I was thinking to myself “yup, not going to be caught in that trap again…”

It’s the Chailly/Leipzig recording I’ll be investigating, not heard it before.

[silvestrione]

I listened last nite. Wow, some sacred cows well and truly slaughtered! Having bought the Karajan 1977 set one Lp at a time as a teenager, I was amazed upon hearing the Klemperer set to discover that the Beethoven symphonies had wind and brass parts!

Though only an amusing caricature...I started to worry, was I so misguided in enjoying Karajan in Beethoven? From 1977 I only have the Ninth these days, so I put it on. The wind and brass are of course prominent from the start, and I love the effect of the trumpet-and-drums. The wind band is indeed 'blended', a bit homogenised if you want a ruder term, but does contribute greatly to the particular 'Beethoven sound' HvK and his marvellous Berliners create, and also the forward drive, the momentum, the focus. There are some beautiful wind solos, especially in last movement, e.g. the bassoon counterpoint to the main theme, and the heart-easing solos just before the last great dissonant outburst before the voice comes in. (Also notable, some virtuoso tympany work in the Scherzo!)

Wouldn't be my favourite any more, however: slow movement eloquent but a trifle bland.

[pastoralguy]

Though only an amusing caricature...I started to worry, was I so misguided in enjoying Karajan in Beethoven? From 1977 I only have the Ninth these days, so I put it on. The wind and brass are of course prominent from the start, and I love the effect of the trumpet-and-drums. The wind band is indeed 'blended', a bit homogenised if you want a ruder term, but does contribute greatly to the particular 'Beethoven sound' HvK and his marvellous Berliners create, and also the forward drive, the momentum, the focus. There are some beautiful wind solos, especially in last movement, e.g. the bassoon counterpoint to the main theme, and the heart-easing solos just before the last great dissonant outburst before the voice comes in. (Also notable, some virtuoso tympany work in the Scherzo!)

Wouldn't be my favourite any more, however: slow movement eloquent but a trifle bland.

I suspect my inability to appreciate the Wind and Brass in Karajan’s 1977 cycle had more to do with the inadequacies of my little Alba stereo system than the actual performance but since I now have the cycle in the re-mastered Karajan ‘Big Box’ and a pretty fabulous Hi-Fi I concede that the windy instruments can be heard. Mind you, Klemp’s Beethoven leaves no ambiguity in that department.

[Barbirollians]

Of RW’s shortlist I enjoyed the Jordan most.

[Barbirollians]

Having listened to it again I found it annoying - there was very much a slag off the past agenda which he illustrated by playing Furtwangler, klemperer and Karajan but ignored highly successful by now means sluggish modern instrument performances like Monteux,Walter ,Bernstein ,Szell

[HighlandDougie]

RW chose Adam Fischer in Symphony No 1 and now this Jarvi which I don’t like -more about the sound than the music to my ears .

Having finally got round to disinterring the Järvi CD, I would go further than Barbs in relation to the sound. "Actively dislike", in my case (and that was the SACD incarnation). I realise that Beethoven didn't set out to 'charm' with this symphony but I like to think that 'beguile' - as well as 'shock' - might have been somewhere in his general intentions. This performance certainly did not do the former for me - nor, in fact, the latter. Rather, I grew increasingly scunnered with it as it proceeded. Maybe I just wasn't in the right mood but it certainly wouldn't have been my BaL choice.

[MickyD]

Ooh Dougie, that's a new word for me, 'scunnered'...must be Scots! Does it mean irritated?

[HighlandDougie]

Yes indeed. A good (or guid) Scots word, defined as follows:

https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/scunner

I don't often take a scunner against performances but, alas, Järvi fils and his LvB 8th did it for me.

[Tapiola]

Here in Northern Ireland, we say "scundered", with a slightly different meaning (shades of mortification or embarrassment). Pure scundered, I was...

(There's also the character Scunner Campbell in the children's series Supergran.)

[HighlandDougie]

Here in Northern Ireland, we say "scundered", with a slightly different meaning (shades of mortification or embarrassment). Pure scundered, I was...

(There's also the character Scunner Campbell in the children's series Supergran.)

And that's an addition to my lexicon, too

[MickyD]

Yes indeed. A good (or guid) Scots word, defined as follows:

https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/scunner

I don't often take a scunner against performances but, alas, Järvi fils and his LvB 8th did it for me.

Thank you - I'll try to work it into a conversation next time I'm talking to my brother in law from Edinburgh...he should be impressed!

[HighlandDougie]

I'm sorely tempted to add some other choice words (like "glaikit" - oh no, that might get me sin-binned!), But as long as you don't say something like, "Aye, I've taken a richt guid scunner to you, [name of brother-in-law]". I would have to plead the something-th amendment and deny all responsibility on the basis of diminished mental capacity after a glass or three of Bandol rosé.

[MickyD]

I'm sorely tempted to add some other choice words (like "glaikit" - oh no, that might get me sin-binned!), But as lonroseg as you don't say something like, "Aye, I've taken a richt guid scunner to you, [name of brother-in-law]". I would have to plead the something-th amendment and deny all responsibility on the basis of diminished mental capacity after a glass or three of Bandol rosé.

Ha ha! The said brother in law could more than match you in the rosé stakes, I bet!
I always thought "glaikit" was much the same as "peely-wally", but presumably it's stronger than that? (Maybe we should start a new thread on this!)