BaL 14.10.23 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 8 in F Op.93

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

In my younger days, this was my favourite Beethoven Symphony, having first heard it live under Barbirolli.

One thing I’ve never quite understood is the late modulation at the end of the second movement. Although it returns to the tonic key of that movement, it seems too late to feel stable, as though the music should slip back again to the previous key. This isn’t a criticism - but it remains an eye opener even after alll these years.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Blimey Furtwangler makes the 8th towards the end of that extract from the first movement sound like an excerpt from the ninth with its extraordinary sense of rising harmonic tension.
In comparison the Karajan extract seems almost prettified, not an adjective that usually springs to mind with him.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Even though , thanks to constant interruptions I’ve had to rewind this BAL five times , I can tell it’s an exceptionally good one.

[HighlandDougie]

Almost impossible to choose whom to compare, given the plethora of recordings. but a fair representation of the field, I thought. Nothing to frighten the horses in relation to the versions chosen for comparison. Nor, indeed, the two chosen versions (HiPP and Modern). Alas, Alison, not even a whisper of BH. But, as ever with this reviewer, articulate and knowledgeable. An enjoyable listen.

[Parry1912]

Didn’t hear it, unfortunately. Who ‘won’?

[Bryn]

Didn’t hear it, unfortunately. Who ‘won’?

10.30 am
Richard Wigmore chooses his favourite recording of Beethoven's Symphony No. 8 in F, Op. 93.

Beethoven's Symphony No. 8 has often suffered in comparison to its immediate symphonic neighbours (when asked why people favoured the Seventh symphony over the Eighth, Beethoven replied “Because the Eighth is so much better”). In one sense the Eighth is just like all Beethoven's symphonies, each one of which is revolutionary and breaks new musical ground compared to its predecessor. This time, Beethoven's preoccupations were concision, formal subversion, ebullient energy and musical humour. Beethoven's instrumental writing is remarkable, too, and well over a century after its 1814 premiere, the Eighth impressed no less a judge than Igor Stravinsky, who knew a thing or two about orchestration.

Richard's recommended recording:
Kammerphilharmonie Bremen
Paavo Järvi (conductor)
RCA 88697006552

Recommended period instrument recording:
London Classical Players
Roger Norrington (conductor)
Erato 0834232

from https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001r904

[Parry1912]

Thanks

[Lordgeous]

Almost impossible to choose whom to compare, given the plethora of recordings. but a fair representation of the field, I thought. Nothing to frighten the horses in relation to the versions chosen for comparison. Nor, indeed, the two chosen versions (HiPP and Modern). Alas, Alison, not even a whisper of BH. But, as ever with this reviewer, articulate and knowledgeable. An enjoyable listen.

Agreed. As one of my favourite Betthoven symphonies - and the only one I've conducted - I was hopeing to hear the 'ideal' version, but perhaps that's an unrealistic expectation, or there might just be one nestling among the '3 figure' available versions? Poor reviewer; just where does one begin?! Nevertheless an enjoyable and interesting BAL My memory may play me false but I think I enjoyed a Giulini version, coupled with the 9th, on LP for many years, though what I would think of it now...?! For me there was something in each of RW's chosen versions that just ruled it out for me, let alone the old metronome problem. Did LVB really imagine the finale at the speed marked, and if so, does it 'work'?

[smittims]

Oh, please don't start the old controversy over Beethoven's metronome. Herman Scherchen is long dead and Shhh! I think Bryn is asleep .

[Bryn]

Oh, please don't start the old controversy over Beethoven's metronome. Herman Scherchen is long dead and Shhh! I think Bryn is asleep .

No, just bored stiff with the excuses people put up for dismissing Beethoven's prescribed tempi for the start* of movements as indicated in his Metronome markings. Still, what would he have known, he only composed and often performed the music he appended metronome marks to. Of course, it's not just the metronome marks that get dismissed. Due to a printer's error, the 'slow' movement of the 5th piano concerto tends to get played way too slowly despite the common time/cut time error having been identified and corrected in more recent editions of the score. Not having left metronome markings for the concertos, they were added by Cerny, who was familiar with Beethoven's approach to tempi.

* Beethoven's metronome markings were there to indicate his preferred tempo at the point in the score to which he attached them, not necessarily to everything that followed.

[Lordgeous]

Oh, please don't start the old controversy over Beethoven's metronome. Herman Scherchen is long dead and Shhh! I think Bryn is asleep .

There must be many here who have missed previous discussions/threads!

[Alison]

It was Caliban who pointed out that excerpts from the Jarvi LvB cycle could often sound phenomenal only for the complete rendition to make less impact. This I feel is germane to the current discussion .

I will relisten to my three Haitink recordings of the Eighth and in the meantime remark that his LSO account is Hurwitz’s preferred version.

[Bryn]

. . . I will relisten to my three Haitink recordings of the Eighth and in the meantime remark that his LSO account is Hurwitz’s preferred version.

That does not necessarily mean is abysmal.

[silvestrione]

I have listened now, and very much enjoyed the programme. Good to have a reviewer who is confident, clear, and knowledgeable. And plays longish extracts! I liked the Harnoncourt particularly.
I tended to wonder, was there a tendency to patronise the piece just a little, in the 'modern approach' so copiously illustrated? Isn't it something more than Haydnesque high spirits raised to a higher power? Yes, I am thinking of the insights in the Furtwangler performances, and also the remarkable Karajan/VPO from 1946. In these versions, we are in the vicinity of the 9th (as we should be?) Just consider how in that Karajan, the exposition undermines itself, drops into mysterious silence, before the second subject...Also, nothing was said about how the symphony moves toward that remarkable extensive coda to the last movement, with its harmonic explorations.

[Alison]

I have listened now, and very much enjoyed the programme. Good to have a reviewer who is confident, clear, and knowledgeable. And plays longish extracts! I liked the Harnoncourt particularly.
I tended to wonder, was there a tendency to patronise the piece just a little, in the 'modern approach' so copiously illustrated? Isn't it something more than Haydnesque high spirits raised to a higher power? Yes, I am thinking of the insights in the Furtwangler performances, and also the remarkable Karajan/VPO from 1946. In these versions, we are in the vicinity of the 9th (as we should be?) Just consider how in that Karajan, the exposition undermines itself, drops into mysterious silence, before the second subject...Also, nothing was said about how the symphony moves toward that remarkable extensive coda to the last movement, with its harmonic explorations.

Good points. RW often seems to go for ‘impish’.