BaL 23.09.23 - Mahler: Symphony no. 8

[RichardB]

Adorno/Simpson v. Cooke/Mann
no contest IMHO

Interestingly though, Tom got most of the insider info he needed for Doktor Faustus from Ted, if I'm not mistaken.

[richardfinegold]

Visiting the mountain top, instantly, without effort diminishes the view ahead where everything is in miniature.

I think that's very well put edashtav. I count myself amongst those Mahler fans who struggles with the 8th. I find the opening simply too much, overwhelming almost, and I switch off. But I will try again at some point!

That is usually my response as well.
Ed’s comments are interesting and perceptive. Mahler does start with the guns blazing. Perhaps he was experimenting with form. It’s like reading a novel that starts with the climax of a story and then works backwards to tell the story of what unfolded to get the characters to that point (Detective stories tend to do this; recall Sherlock Holmes A Study In Scarlet where the guilty party is nabbed early in the proceedings, with over half the story untold). I think that when it comes to Music most of us would prefer a linear narrative, with the end of the journey clearly emerging from what had preceded.
I listened to the Solti recording yesterday, my first hearing of the work in some time. The music at the beginning of the Faust part is what attracts me the most. Much of it sounds anticipatory of the last movement of the Ninth.

[Petrushka]

That is usually my response as well.
Ed’s comments are interesting and perceptive. Mahler does start with the guns blazing. Perhaps he was experimenting with form. It’s like reading a novel that starts with the climax of a story and then works backwards to tell the story of what unfolded to get the characters to that point (Detective stories tend to do this; recall Sherlock Holmes A Study In Scarlet where the guilty party is nabbed early in the proceedings, with over half the story untold). I think that when it comes to Music most of us would prefer a linear narrative, with the end of the journey clearly emerging from what had preceded.
I listened to the Solti recording yesterday, my first hearing of the work in some time. The music at the beginning of the Faust part is what attracts me the most. Much of it sounds anticipatory of the last movement of the Ninth.

You could hardly get more of a narrative than the setting of the second part of Faust which is almost operatic in design. There are numerous thematic connections between the two parts, most notably the theme that occurs at the great choral outburst in Part 1 at 'Accende lumen sensibus...'. This great plea for creative light is heard again and again in Part 2 and is answered in the final chorus with tremendous affirmative power. The narrative between the two parts is absolutely clear and the journey to the end emerges perfectly from the very opening of the whole work.

[RichardB]

You could hardly get more of a narrative than the setting of the second part of Faust which is almost operatic in design. There are numerous thematic connections between the two parts, most notably the theme that occurs at the great choral outburst in Part 1 at 'Accende lumen sensibus...'. This great plea for creative light is heard again and again in Part 2 and is answered in the final chorus with tremendous affirmative power. The narrative between the two parts is absolutely clear and the journey to the end emerges perfectly from the very opening of the whole work.

And what I really don't get is the idea that the beginning of part 1 is somehow climactic after which everything is winding down. It's a striking opening, for sure, but it actually consists of a patchwork of highly varied sub-groups of the ensemble (organ+low woodwind+low strings - chorus I+II - trumpets+trombones+timpani - strings+chorus I - upper woodwinds+chorus II) as if the "creator spiritus" is being invoked to bring together these disparate sound-textures, culminating in almost a tutti (but without Chorus I) just before figure 3, but not reaching its complete fulfilment until the end of the symphony. The opening is no more (or less) climactic than that of Beethoven's 5th. I mean I don't want to get into arguments of the yes-it-is-no-it-isn't variety here, let alone I-can-hear-it-and-you-can't-so-you're-wrong, but what I'm talking about is in the score and surely audible as such.

[Ein Heldenleben]

And what I really don't get is the idea that the beginning of part 1 is somehow climactic after which everything is winding down. It's a striking opening, for sure, but it actually consists of a patchwork of highly varied sub-groups of the ensemble (organ+low woodwind+low strings - chorus I+II - trumpets+trombones+timpani - strings+chorus I - upper woodwinds+chorus II) as if the "creator spiritus" is being invoked to bring together these disparate sound-textures, culminating in almost a tutti (but without Chorus I) just before figure 3, but not reaching its complete fulfilment until the end of the symphony. The opening is no more (or less) climactic than that of Beethoven's 5th. I mean I don't want to get into arguments of the yes-it-is-no-it-isn't variety here, let alone I-can-hear-it-and-you-can't-so-you're-wrong, but what I'm talking about is in the score and surely audible as such.

Absolutely right - it’s just not a climax . Don’t confuse organ , timps , horns and FF chorus with a genuine climax . It’s a superbly crafted opening flourish which soon melts into a quiet solo group. Is it one of the most explicitly polyphonic things Mahler ever wrote ?
Pretty soon we are into the Schindlers list * theme and a completely different sound world.
* apologies but it’s note for note the same !

[RichardB]

* apologies but it’s note for note the same !

What? John Williams shamelessly lifting themes from Mahler??? Whatever next?

[Ein Heldenleben]

What? John Williams shamelessly lifting themes from Mahler??? Whatever next?

Modest though. Apparently when he saw the rough cut of Schindler’s List he said that it needed a better composer than him .
Spielberg replied “true , but they are all dead .”

[Bryn]

What? John Williams shamelessly lifting themes from Mahler??? Whatever next?

I guess he might have been prompted by Mike Moran's score for Time Bandits. Lots of Mahler in that. Almost as oily as Castrol GTX.

[RichardB]

I guess he might have been prompted by Mike Moran's score for Time Bandits

That is indeed a cornucopia of Mahler pastiche. But Williams has plenty of form when it comes to plundering other people's music.

[RichardB]

Spielberg replied “true , but they are all dead.”

- in which he was of course completely wrong, besides which what's wrong with using music by those dead composers - Kubrick and Visconti obviously didn't have a problem with doing so.

[Opinionated Knowall]

Can I recommend Stephen Johnson's 'The Eighth: Mahler and the World in 1910'? It sent me back to listen again with fresh ears.