BaL 23.09.23 - Mahler: Symphony no. 8

[edashtav]

Yes, that was an unlikely troika and I wish Ed would clarify what he meant by “Poster Art”. Fwiw, I think RB’s description of works being distended more than their slender frames can support applies more to the Strauss than the Shostakovich, although the 5 priceless minutes in the Alpine Symphony are what keeps it in the repetoire.

I meant by Poster Art that the works contain much that is in broad brush strokes, lacking the detail, complexity, variety and invention which I need. I suffer from an early exposure and attachment to the music of Bax : he indulges in over- elaboration, and fears exact repetition. The 100plus repetition of one motif in Bantock's Hebridean Symphony is anathema to me.

The nature of my problem with Mahler's 8th may stem from its opening,climactic statement : it's analogous to RS's Also Spracht or, maybe, Tchaikovsky's Bb Piano Concerto. Visiting the mountain top, instantly, without effort diminishes the view ahead where everything is in miniature.

[kindofblue]

Visiting the mountain top, instantly, without effort diminishes the view ahead where everything is in miniature.

I think that's very well put edashtav. I count myself amongst those Mahler fans who struggles with the 8th. I find the opening simply too much, overwhelming almost, and I switch off. But I will try again at some point!

[RichardB]

I meant by Poster Art that the works contain much that is in broad brush strokes, lacking the detail, complexity, variety and invention which I need.

This is really not the case though. The width of the strokes is constantly changing! I would say there are more moments where the orchestra is used soloistically than where it's used for massive weight, just as the vocal parts (especially in the first movement) are shifting between solo and choral perspectives. Think for example of the passage just before the final accumulation of sound in the second movement, where solo woodwinds and strings are combined with celesta, piano, harps and harmonium, an enigmatic and delicate texture of the kind one might associate more with the Lied van der Erde. Mahler's use of counterpoint in the 8th is often at least as complex than anything he had written previously, as can be heard from the opening pages onwards

The nature of my problem with Mahler's 8th may stem from its opening, climactic statement

The opening is certainly striking, but there are plenty of moments later on which build on it in various ways, like the "Amen"-like cadence at the end of the first movement or the Bruckneresque thematic integration at the end of the second. What I'm saying is that of course if you don't like it that's your business, but the specific reasons you give for not liking it make it seem like you're talking about a different piece altogether!

[Ein Heldenleben]

This is really not the case though. The width of the strokes is constantly changing! I would say there are more moments where the orchestra is used soloistically than where it's used for massive weight, just as the vocal parts (especially in the first movement) are shifting between solo and choral perspectives. Think for example of the passage just before the final accumulation of sound in the second movement, where solo woodwinds and strings are combined with celesta, piano, harps and harmonium, an enigmatic and delicate texture of the kind one might associate more with the Lied van der Erde. Mahler's use of counterpoint in the 8th is often at least as complex than anything he had written previously, as can be heard from the opening pages onwards

The opening is certainly striking, but there are plenty of moments later on which build on it in various ways, like the "Amen"-like cadence at the end of the first movement or the Bruckneresque thematic integration at the end of the second. What I'm saying is that of course if you don't like it that's your business, but the specific reasons you give for not liking it make it seem like you're talking about a different piece altogether!

That’s absolutely right and something that the reviewer brought out in her careful analysis of just one very small section in the Solti recording. Far from being bombastic that opening motto underpins much of the work.There’s an excellent and relatively easy to understand analysis of ( largely based on Mitchell and Kennedy) in the Wikipedia entry on the work .

[RichardB]

Far from being bombastic that opening motto underpins much of the work.There’s an excellent and relatively easy to understand analysis of ( largely based on Mitchell and Kennedy) in the Wikipedia entry on the work .

Yes, although I was thinking not of the theme itself but of the whole opening, which involves antiphonal exchanges between the choir and different sections of the orchestra (not forgetting the organ of course) rather than a tutti, which leaves plenty of potential weight in store for more massively scored moments later on.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes, although I was thinking not of the theme itself but of the whole opening, which involves antiphonal exchanges between the choir and different sections of the orchestra (not forgetting the organ of course) rather than a tutti, which leaves plenty of potential weight in store for more massively scored moments later on.

Yes Mitchell thinks of a Part 1 as a kind of gigantic motet - a conscious exploration of Bachian polyphony with specific reference to Singet dem Herrn ein neues Lied.
Mahler’s capacity to reinvent himself symphonically never ceases to astonish.

[edashtav]

Many Mahler scholars found the work to be atypical of its composer and even distasteful. Two luminaries influenced maybe formed , my opinion in the1950s/1960s.

Theodor Adorno imagined the 8th as ‘a giant symbolic shell’, inferior to Gustav's other symphonies. At the BBC, symphonist and Mahler enthusiast, Robert Simpson, described Part II as ‘an ocean of shameless kitsch.’

[Ein Heldenleben]

Many Mahler scholars found the work to be atypical of its composer and even distasteful. Two luminaries influenced maybe formed , my opinion in the1950s/1960s.

Theodor Adorno imagined the 8th as ‘a giant symbolic shell’, inferior to Gustav's other symphonies. At the BBC, symphonist and Mahler enthusiast, Robert Simpson, described Part II as ‘an ocean of shameless kitsch.’

Yes and in the interests of balance in the same excellent wiki article Deryck Cooke is quoted :

‘Deryck Cooke, on the other hand, compares Mahler's Eighth to Beethoven's Choral (Ninth) Symphony. To Cooke, Mahler's is "the Choral Symphony of the twentieth century: like Beethoven's, but in a different way, it sets before us an ideal [of redemption] which we are as yet far from realising—even perhaps moving away from—but which we can hardly abandon without perishing".^[46]‘

Thomas Mann also wrote an extravagant letter of praise to Mahler after the premiere and he knew one or two things about Faust.(and music for that matter )

[RichardB]

Theodor Adorno imagined the 8th as ‘a giant symbolic shell’, inferior to Gustav's other symphonies. At the BBC, symphonist and Mahler enthusiast, Robert Simpson, described Part II as ‘an ocean of shameless kitsch.’

On the other hand, one might opine that both Adorno and Simpson needed to, as the young people say, "get over themselves"!

[Lordgeous]

Yes and in the interests of balance in the same excellent wiki article Deryck Cooke is quoted :

‘Deryck Cooke, on the other hand, compares Mahler's Eighth to Beethoven's Choral (Ninth) Symphony. To Cooke, Mahler's is "the Choral Symphony of the twentieth century: like Beethoven's, but in a different way, it sets before us an ideal [of redemption] which we are as yet far from realising—even perhaps moving away from—but which we can hardly abandon without perishing".^[46]‘

Thomas Mann also wrote an extravagant letter of praise to Mahler after the premiere and he knew one or two things about Faust.(and music for that matter )

I still don' like it! Sang in it once (at RAH with, I think, Boult). Didn't change my view. And the closing passage seems like a poor recap of the wonderful end to the 2nd Symphony. I LOVE Mahler, just not the 8th.

[RichardB]

the closing passage seems like a poor recap of the wonderful end to the 2nd Symphony

Amazing how opinions differ on this work! I hear it as an advance on the 2nd in every way.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Amazing how opinions differ on this work! I hear it as an advance on the 2nd in every way.

Adorno/Simpson v. Cooke / Mann
no contest IMHO

[Lordgeous]

Adorno/Simpson v. Cooke / Mann
no contest IMHO

But in which way H? Which pair do you favour?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I first bought this as part of the Maazel's Vienna cycle. I wasn't impressed with the 8t as it seemed rather deliberate and sluggish. Bernstein's version with the same orchestra was better, but suffered from some poor intonation from the soloists. I recalled hearing Solti's version at a friend's home, through some magnificent equipment in 1973 (50 years ago ) and being somewhat impressed by it. So this week I finally bit the bullet and ordered the CD. Having listened to it yesterday, I'm wondering why I waited for half a century.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I first bought this as part of the Maazel's Vienna cycle. I wasn't impressed with the 8t as it seemed rather deliberate and sluggish. Bernstein's version with the same orchestra was better, but suffered from some poor intonation from the soloists. I recalled hearing Solti's version at a friend's home, through some magnificent equipment in 1973 (50 years ago ) and being somewhat impressed by it. So this week I finally bit the bullet and ordered the CD. Having listened to it yesterday, I'm wondering why I waited for half a century.

Maazel's performance at the RAH - after he pulled the first movement about, I wanted to leave and go home.