BaL 28.03.15 - Elgar: Symphony no. 2 in E flat

[Tevot]

Hello again,

An afterthought that has just struck me - and perhaps this is an elephant in the room... Has Simon Rattle recorded either of the Symphonies?

https://quintessentialruminations.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/sir-edward-elgar-sir-simon-rattle-and-the-curious-incident-of-the-missing-symphony/

Best Wishes,

Tevot

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Has Simon Rattle recorded either of the Symphonies?

That would be terrific.

[pastoralguy]

I don't think Sir Simon has recorded either of the symphonies but he did record 'Falstaff' and 'Gerontius' with the CBSO. There was a tantalising recording of one of the Pomp & Circumstances with Die Berliner Philharmoniker made shortly after he got there. Alas, no more.

[richardfinegold]

That's all interesting stuff and it's worth looking at the reasons why this might be the case.

First of all, the 1st Symphony had had a tremendous success - over 100 performances in its first year - and there must have been many who expected another symphony to be broadly the same. It isn't; instead it's very different in mood and complexity. Moreover, the 2nd ends not with a loud triumphant bang but in something much more ambivalent, whether tranquillity, death, peace or whatever. Taking my own experience as a sort of yardstick, I 'got' the 1st immediately on its first hearing. It swept all before it and I played it again and again for days (40 years ago next month as well). My first experience of the 2nd was just like the US reviews you mention: bafflement, incomprehension and I was not one bit convinced. It took many hearings over the next few years for it to sink in and to recognise it for what it is.

Elgar had had great success with his music in Germany. Richard Strauss labelled him 'the first English progressive' but within 3 years of the first performance of the 2nd Britain and Germany were at war and it dealt a fatal blow to the appreciation of Elgar's music. By the time hostilities had ceased, Elgar's supposedly comfortable Imperial music was seen as old fashioned and stuck in the past. The Second World War 25 years later merely compounded the problem. This labelling of Elgar as the 'imperial' composer has had far reaching consequences which, I think, continue to this day.

Surely, the time is now well past to throw off the shackles of the British Empire and listen to this wonderful emotionally complex personal music anew and appreciate it for what it is. That Elgar only wrote two symphonies might also have hampered that appreciation. However, I hope that, in particular, Barenboim's Berlin recording (and performances) herald a sea-change that will see the Elgar 2 finally achieve the world-wide recognition that, save for the accident of time, it would have had in the first place.

Very interesting analysis. I would observe that English Music in general doesn't get the exposure that I would like to see it get. Vaughn Williams Symphonies are a rarity on programmes; when the CSO did the 5th a few years ago I was astonished to read in the notes it was the first time they had played it and that only 3 RVW Symphonies have ever been played here. I can safely conclude that Maxwell Daviews, Birtwhistle, Rubbra, Simpson, Lloyd, etc will never be played in my lifetime. Butterworth occassionally; Stamford never. The Planets does manage to make it here every year, and the Summer Season as well.
In that context, excepting Holst's Greatest Hit, Elgar is the most frequently performed English Composer, with Walton probably being second. This may be difficult to appreciate from the English Perspective.
Your analysis of the effect of the World Wars may explain why Central Europe may be a bit slow to embrace Elgar. For non Brits he is the Musical Poster boy of Edwardian England. However, that wouldn't explain a lack of acceptance in the States, or the Far East, or Scandinavia (or Russia, except that Svetlanov apparently had a go at it). There is something about the work that leaves non Brits non plussed.
I explored Elgar's Symphonies about 20 years ago. The Second was the hardest to come to terms with, and I eventually developed a liking for it, but I am somewhat astonished to find that others here think it is one of the greatest Symphonies ever penned. So there must be something "innately British" about it that give it such reasonance.

[Bryn]

Well at least HB's Exody was premiered in Chicago (Barenboim conducting back in 1995).

[Gordon]

According to Richard Osborne's bio of Karajan Elgar 2 was the only score he kept after reviewing several other Elgar works around 1980. According to RO Karajan found the work to be of "absorbing interest".

I read somewhere that when challenged to do more English music - RO [p817 note 8 to chapter 71] mentions VW 4 and 6 as candidates - he said he might if it were not for the likely obvious critical reacion in England that foreign conductors would never be able to get it right. Good excuse to avoid it.

[Bryn]

According to Richard Osborne's bio of Karajan Elgar 2 was the only score he kept after reviewing several other Elgar works around 1980. According to RO Karajan found the work to be of "absorbing interest".

I read somewhere that when challenged to do more English music - RO [p817 note 8 to chapter 71] mentions VW 4 and 6 as candidates - he said he might if it were not for the likely obvious critical reacion in England that foreign conductors would never be able to get it right. Good excuse to avoid it.

Bearing in mind his approach to Walton's FIrst, I wonder what cuts Karajan would have made in the Elgar and/or RVW?

[richardfinegold]

Well at least HB's Exody was premiered in Chicago (Barenboim conducting back in 1995).

I should know better than to make Grand Proclamations on this Forum. There are so many erudite contributors that someone will always prove me wrong.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Bearing in mind his approach to Walton's FIrst, I wonder what cuts Karajan would have made in the Elgar and/or RVW?

I recall reading somewhere that Beecham made cuts when performing Elgar's first symphony.

[Petrushka]

Can anyone please point out anything that is 'innately British' in the Elgar 2? It is so close to the world of Mahler and Strauss as to put it firmly in the Central European tradition.

By the way, Tippett was pretty big in Chicago in the 1970s (his 4th Symphony was first performed by Solti and the CSO) and Birtwistle's Violin Concerto was first performed in Boston.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Can anyone please point out anything that is 'innately British' in the Elgar 2? It is so close to the world of Mahler and Strauss as to put it firmly in the Central European tradition.

I think the characteristic Elgarian orchestration has become confused with "Englishness". It's actually quite Germanic.

[Alison]

I think the characteristic Elgarian orchestration has become confused with "Englishness". It's actually quite Germanic.

[BBMmk2]

I think the characteristic Elgarian orchestration has become confused with "Englishness". It's actually quite Germanic.

Hence, why Gerontius was immensely popular in Germany.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I should know better than to make Grand Proclamations on this Forum.

I think that Mavis has been performed in Las Vegas during your lifetime, too, rfg.

[richardfinegold]

I think that Mavis has been performed in Las Vegas during your lifetime, too, rfg.

Mavis grew up on the South Side right here...