BaL 28.03.15 - Elgar: Symphony no. 2 in E flat

[Alison]

By the way the Previn is LSO, not RPO. A fiendishly disappointing account too.

Agree with Edgey about the splendid Mackerras: I believe a Menuhin recording came out at about the same time and the two Royal Philharmonic versions got in each other's way.

[Petrushka]

Slatkin - a very good performance indeed.


Loughran certainly achieved this in concert, but I don't remember the same impact on his recording - I don't think the ASV engineers could register what the Hallé percussionists achieved Live.

Haven't got the Slatkin or latest Andrew Davis so that's two more for me to look out for. I also heard James Loughran perform the Elgar 2 in concert with the Halle way back in 1975 but never did get his recording. The one time that the percussion really did go for it in my experience of that third movement was in a 1989 Colston Hall, Bristol concert with Owain Arwel Hughes and the Bournemouth SO. They did exactly what Elgar asked.

[seabright]

Again we've got to accept that this great British symphony is not really appreciated outside these Isles without a British (or English speaking) orchestra and/or English speaking conductor.

The only completely non-"English" recordings are
Staatskapelle Berlin, Daniel Barenboim and
Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra/Sakari Oramo.

Only Staatskapelle Dresden, the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra and the Royal Concertgebouw orchestra are non-"english" speaking.

Wasn't it Mark Elder who said this was the greatest symphony of the 20th century, or did he say it was the greatest British one? In any event, for a work being described as "great" it's remarkable, as already stated, just how few recordings of the work have ever been made outside the UK. One wonders what any of the great American orchestras, none of whom have recorded it, would sound like in this work. As a sampler, try Riccardo Muti and the Philadelphia Orchestra's utterly superb "In the South" and ponder on an Elgar 2 from them that would have been anything like that wonderful performance ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-ZKmVHfgac

[pastoralguy]

By the way the Previn is LSO, not RPO. A fiendishly disappointing account too.

Agree with Edgey about the splendid Mackerras: I believe a Menuhin recording came out at about the same time and the two Royal Philharmonic versions got in each other's way.

Yes, I was extremely disappointed with Previn's Elgar 2 since his recording of the First Symphony is one of my very favourite recordings of all time. The Second never really takes off and sounds like a wet Monday morning run through.

[BBMmk2]

Handley and sir Andrew Davis(2005), and Barbirolli.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Wot, no Loughran?

A few copies are still around, but it does not appear to generally available.

[richardfinegold]

Wasn't it Mark Elder who said this was the greatest symphony of the 20th century, or did he say it was the greatest British one? In any event, for a work being described as "great" it's remarkable, as already stated, just how few recordings of the work have ever been made outside the UK. One wonders what any of the great American orchestras, none of whom have recorded it, would sound like in this work. As a sampler, try Riccardo Muti and the Philadelphia Orchestra's utterly superb "In the South" and ponder on an Elgar 2 from them that would have been anything like that wonderful performance ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-ZKmVHfgac

As Roehre noted earlier, this piece doesn't travel well. I have seen the First Symphony programmed here but can't recall encountering #2. My own recording is Barbirolli and the Halle. when I am in the mood for Elgar I usually want to listen to #1 or the bastardized #3.

[Petrushka]

As Roehre noted earlier, this piece doesn't travel well. I have seen the First Symphony programmed here but can't recall encountering #2. My own recording is Barbirolli and the Halle. when I am in the mood for Elgar I usually want to listen to #1 or the bastardized #3.

I'm completely baffled as to why the Elgar 2 'doesn't travel well'. As I said above, there is nothing particularly English about the piece. On the contrary, it has much in common with Mahler and Richard Strauss and is contemporary with Sibelius 4 and Mahler 9. It shares with both of those works a feeling of unease and impending catastrophe that was to find its apotheosis in the Great War. Woven into it are Elgar's personal memories, trips to Tintagel and Venice, the death of a much loved friend and the famous Shelley quote, all the kind of things, in other words, that you might expect from Mahler.

The 1st Symphony is easier to 'get' - it took me several years to 'get' the 2nd, but once I did I could see it as one of the very greatest symphonies ever penned.

[EdgeleyRob]

I'm completely baffled as to why the Elgar 2 'doesn't travel well'. As I said above, there is nothing particularly English about the piece. On the contrary, it has much in common with Mahler and Richard Strauss and is contemporary with Sibelius 4 and Mahler 9. It shares with both of those works a feeling of unease and impending catastrophe that was to find its apotheosis in the Great War. Woven into it are Elgar's personal memories, trips to Tintagel and Venice, the death of a much loved friend and the famous Shelley quote, all the kind of things, in other words, that you might expect from Mahler.

The 1st Symphony is easier to 'get' - it took me several years to 'get' the 2nd, but once I did I could see it as one of the very greatest symphonies ever penned.

Pet,I often think that Mahler's "A symphony must be like the world. It must contain everything." quote could easily describe Elgar 2,and RVW 9 for that matter.

[seabright]

I think it's reasonable to expect any symphony described as "one of the very greatest ever penned", and not only by Petrushka, to have had any number of non-British recordings by now, over 100 years after its first performance, but evidently these can be counted on the fingers of one hand. The only American performance of the work on CD that I know is a 'live' broadcast from 1964 with the Boston Symphony under Barbirolli on the 'Music & Arts' label (CD-251(2)).

Interestingly, the Wiki article on the work reveals that its first performance under Elgar in May 1911 received "mixed reviews" here, while the US Premiere in Cincinnati later that year under Stokowski fared little better: "The composition is pleasant and it is interesting; but it is not great, nor in any sense convincing" wrote one Cincinnati critic, whilst a New York commentator a few weeks later wrote: "One cannot listen to even the most eloquent pleading for nearly an hour without fatigue, and that was the first impression this music made – of restless, unpitying earnestness."

Well, these things are all a matter of taste and opinion. I heard Rob C on EC the other day say he thought Sibelius's 7th was the greatest 20th century symphony ever written but I dare say plenty of people will say exactly the same about some other work instead!

[Alison]

It can be salutary to listen to a piece of music without requiring anybody to tell us how good it is.

If in doubt, listen again.

[Petrushka]

I think it's reasonable to expect any symphony described as "one of the very greatest ever penned", and not only by Petrushka, to have had any number of non-British recordings by now, over 100 years after its first performance, but evidently these can be counted on the fingers of one hand. The only American performance of the work on CD that I know is a 'live' broadcast from 1964 with the Boston Symphony under Barbirolli on the 'Music & Arts' label (CD-251(2)).

Interestingly, the Wiki article on the work reveals that its first performance under Elgar in May 1911 received "mixed reviews" here, while the US Premiere in Cincinnati later that year under Stokowski fared little better: "The composition is pleasant and it is interesting; but it is not great, nor in any sense convincing" wrote one Cincinnati critic, whilst a New York commentator a few weeks later wrote: "One cannot listen to even the most eloquent pleading for nearly an hour without fatigue, and that was the first impression this music made – of restless, unpitying earnestness."

Well, these things are all a matter of taste and opinion. I heard Rob C on EC the other day say he thought Sibelius's 7th was the greatest 20th century symphony ever written but I dare say plenty of people will say exactly the same about some other work instead!

That's all interesting stuff and it's worth looking at the reasons why this might be the case.

First of all, the 1st Symphony had had a tremendous success - over 100 performances in its first year - and there must have been many who expected another symphony to be broadly the same. It isn't; instead it's very different in mood and complexity. Moreover, the 2nd ends not with a loud triumphant bang but in something much more ambivalent, whether tranquillity, death, peace or whatever. Taking my own experience as a sort of yardstick, I 'got' the 1st immediately on its first hearing. It swept all before it and I played it again and again for days (40 years ago next month as well). My first experience of the 2nd was just like the US reviews you mention: bafflement, incomprehension and I was not one bit convinced. It took many hearings over the next few years for it to sink in and to recognise it for what it is.

Elgar had had great success with his music in Germany. Richard Strauss labelled him 'the first English progressive' but within 3 years of the first performance of the 2nd Britain and Germany were at war and it dealt a fatal blow to the appreciation of Elgar's music. By the time hostilities had ceased, Elgar's supposedly comfortable Imperial music was seen as old fashioned and stuck in the past. The Second World War 25 years later merely compounded the problem. This labelling of Elgar as the 'imperial' composer has had far reaching consequences which, I think, continue to this day.

Surely, the time is now well past to throw off the shackles of the British Empire and listen to this wonderful emotionally complex personal music anew and appreciate it for what it is. That Elgar only wrote two symphonies might also have hampered that appreciation. However, I hope that, in particular, Barenboim's Berlin recording (and performances) herald a sea-change that will see the Elgar 2 finally achieve the world-wide recognition that, save for the accident of time, it would have had in the first place.

[Tevot]

It can be salutary to listen to a piece of music without requiring anybody to tell us how good it is.

If in doubt, listen again.

In full agreement.

I quite like the Downes recording on Naxos.

Best Wishes,

Tevot

[verismissimo]

Re Elgar and foreigners: seems to me that Solti really got Elgar. Do I recall being told that he studied the composer's recordings of the symphonies? Expect them both to do well come Saturday.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Re Elgar and foreigners: seems to me that Solti really got Elgar. Do I recall being told that he studied the composer's recordings of the symphonies? Expect them both to do well come Saturday.

Solti's Elgar 1 was based upon the composer's own recording, but his Elgar 2 seems faster than the composer's readings and rather rushed. There is one Elgar/Solti performance that I do admire, and that's his "Cockaigne".