Bal 21.03.15 - Haydn: Missa in Angustiis (Nelson Mass)

[aeolium]

I again found the conversational BaL format irritating, breaking the flow of JS's perceptions, and at times it was hard to focus on which recording was being discussed. It was the more disappointing as what JS had to say was interesting and informative. I disagreed with his use of the dismissive term "dated", even for recordings he found "wonderful" and "excellent", as if they were merely old-fashioned, out of date, past their sell-by date. Would this be said of Furtwängler's recording of Schubert's 9th symphony, or the Hollywood's performance of Schubert's string quintet, or Erich Kleiber's recording of the Marriage of Figaro? It seemed to consign to outer darkness performances simply on the basis that they had been played in a different style from that currently fashionable.

There were plenty of recordings to enjoy, though I was sorry not to hear extracts from the Weil and Hickox discs (Hickox is excellent in the Harmoniemesse and Theresienmesse imv). I liked the Willcocks, Marriner, Bernstein and Pinnock recordings, and from the extracts broadcast I would have chosen Pinnock ahead of the eventual winner. I would have liked to have heard more of the Higginbotham recording with the treble soloist, too. Worst extracts for me were the Harnoncourt and, sadly, the Kertesz (surprisingly, as I'm a great admirer of his orchestral and opera recordings).

Please, please can AmcG be persuaded to dump the dialogue format BaL? Had it been a solo effort from JS there may have been time to hear Weil and Hickox, apart from anything else.

[Pulcinella]

And I would expect a comment at least about other versions that one might have thought would be high up in the running. But of course that would have taken time, which was instead given to AMcG!

PS! I see that aeolium effectively said the same in his last sentence just above!

[ardcarp]

I found this an odd and slightly unsatisfactory BAL. Given that JS had spent so much time on the work, it is very strange indeed (as Caliban says) that we heard so little of what is out there. I can't help feeling that a more useful approach would have been to use the 1962 Willcocks/Kings version...which I guess many of us cut our teeth on....as a base-line and to canter through the decades. Strange too that he should have given the Bernstein such prominence in a 'good old Lennie' sort of way. I was quite surprised by Rilling as his final choice. IMO, the quality of the choral ensemble, whilst well-directed...maybe over-fussily at times....is not up there with Jeggers' or Pinnock's singers. Oh well, it was Jeremy's choice...and he does know his onions. I get the feeling he was anxious to endorse something Austro-Germanic rather than to admit we Brits do this stuff rather well even if we say Laudamus Tay rather than Tea.

Why didn't we hear more musical examples? Well (1) because we had some chat with Andrew (even though he wasn't too intrusive this week) and (2) because Jeremy was talking live. He speaks very well, of course, but anyone is more concise working on an edited script than ad lib-ing.

One thing I can agree about. The Nelson Mass is a truly, truly great work. It knocks spots off the other Haydn Masses, IMO, not only for its inspired conception, but also for its amazing technical craftwork in voices and string-writing.

[verismissimo]

I don't mind the format if it's well done, but I do mind his equating 'old-fashioned' with inferior.

[Pulcinella]

I agree with ardcarp, except that for me the Pauken just pips it.
And in terms of British style performances, I prefer the King's EMI version of it to the Decca John's one.

[Petrushka]

I don't mind the format if it's well done, but I do mind his equating 'old-fashioned' with inferior.

I'm afraid this is largely the reason why I can't take most BaL's seriously any more.

[aeolium]

I can't agree that the Nelson Mass "knocks spots off the other Haydn Masses", whatever its dramatic power. The Paukenmesse, the Theresienmesse and the final one, the Harmoniemesse are all equally wonderful in their own ways, and the wind writing (as JS mentioned, there is no woodwind in the Nelson Mass) in the Harmoniemesse gives it an additional richness and lyricism. They are all exceptional works.

[Black Swan]

I agree with ardcarp, except that for me the Pauken just pips it.
And in terms of British style performances, I prefer the King's EMI version of it to the Decca John's one.

I am in total agreement with Pulcinella, the Pauken Mass pips it for me too. I am now listening to my JEG recording of it.

I am leaning toward the Hickox recording of the Nelson Mass but may go for JEG, again.

[MickyD]

If it is of any use, here is an extract on YouTube of the Weil version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAAoOOiHw5I

I think the boys' voices are thrilling.

[visualnickmos]

Quite enjoyed this BaL but regarding the Willcocks 1962(?) recording, I had the distinct impression that JS liked it much more than he let on - although he did rightly praise it. I think that particular recording is his musical equivalent of a mistress or mister...... but he was somehow, almost duty-bound not to go too far in its plaudits..... "cos it's gettin' on a bit, and old-fashioned ain't 'hip'......."

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I didn't know there were any "spots" on the last Haydn Masses.

What would these be?

(Reference to bar numbers in scores would be appreciated - but these don't need to originate in facsimiles of the manuscript. )

[Don Petter]

Quite enjoyed this BaL but regarding the Willcocks 1962(?) recording, I had the distinct impression that JS liked it much more than he let on - although he did rightly praise it. I think that particular recording is his musical equivalent of a mistress or mister...... but he was somehow, almost duty-bound not to go too far in its plaudits..... "cos it's gettin' on a bit, and old-fashioned ain't 'hip'......."

He did seem to imply that it was obvious why no-one could choose it, without giving any actual reason.

It sounded wonderful to me, hearing it again after too many years.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Quite enjoyed this BaL but regarding the Willcocks 1962(?) recording, I had the distinct impression that JS liked it much more than he let on - although he did rightly praise it. I think that particular recording is his musical equivalent of a mistress or mister...... but he was somehow, almost duty-bound not to go too far in its plaudits..... "cos it's gettin' on a bit, and old-fashioned ain't 'hip'......."

The way of the world of critics, I'm afraid.

[Nick Armstrong]

I didn't know there were any "spots" on the last Haydn Masses.

What would these be?

(Reference to bar numbers in scores would be appreciated - but these don't need to originate in facsimiles of the manuscript. )

Nice 'ahinton literalism' parody there, ferns!

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i confess that massed choirs and orchestras in religious works are not my ideal listening, however for a novice this was a truly enticing BAL ... i did not find AM too distracting and found the reviewer's enthusiasm and directness entrancing .... of his final three i would plump for the sound quality of JEG over the other two but would not mind all three ... if he had spent so much time in blind listening he should have been given a three hour solo spot, i am certain he would have us all at rapt attention to every bar, mark, and tempi &c ....