BaL 28.02.14 - Schubert: Piano Sonata no 20 in A D959

[Alison]

Perhaps Waldo could supply an example or two of Brendel's muffled left hand playing.

He just might be onto something there ...

[waldo]

Perhaps Waldo could supply an example or two of Brendel's muffled left hand playing.

He just might be onto something there ...

Actually, I think it is quite characteristic of his playing in many recordings. It is something that he himself has admitted to in interviews - perhaps not muffled, exactly, but soft; lacking appropriate force and definition. I can't remember his exact words and feel a bit nervous about paraphrasing him, but I am sure he expressed some form of regret about it. I believe it was the result of a particular approach he was taking, a style he had deliberately adopted but which he wasn't quite so sure about in retrospect........... I suppose what I am getting it as that there are players who really seem to shape the bass with precision and true weight - Arrau, for instance - but that Brendel tends to hold back and has a tendency to turn the left hand into an accompaniment, a textural presence, rather than a true, contrapuntal line.

I am thinking, in particular, of his Beethoven and Schubert. Despite my criticism of him - overstated, I admit - I have listened to him quite a lot over the years. I certainly recognise his artistry and integrity. It is only in the final analysis, when put alongside my favoured masters (Arrau, Pollini, Kovacevich, Kempff) that he seems bland.

I will have a quick listen and see if I can find an example of the kind of left-hand thing I mean........though it make time a little time.

[Alison]

Very interesting Waldo. Brendel used to be my benchmark in Beethoven but an investment in the Pollini complete sonata set has been something of a revelation. Far more definition in the left hand among many other virtues.

[Bryn]

Very interesting Waldo. Brendel used to be my benchmark in Beethoven but an investment in the Pollini complete sonata set has been something of a revelation. Far more definition in the left hand among many other virtues.

How did I miss that release. An absolute must.

[Alison]

How did I miss that release. An absolute must.

Most probably in the pre Christmas rush Bryn. Life enhancing stuff indeed. Enjoy shopping around for a deal.
Mine was 19.99 on I tunes.

[waldo]

Very interesting Waldo. Brendel used to be my benchmark in Beethoven but an investment in the Pollini complete sonata set has been something of a revelation. Far more definition in the left hand among many other virtues.

Yes, Pollini really does bring out the left hand - you really hear it as a dramatic, driving force.

I've just been listening to bits and pieces of Brendel. It's quite a subtle thing; the bass is there, and is sometimes prominent, but when you listen to others, you suddenly find yourself listening anew to the left hand. Here's an example - if you've got spotify, or have the recordings. Listen to the first movement of Beethoven's opus 110. Now, if you listen to Brendel (his Decca recording, which Spotify has as The Late Piano Sonatas) you will probably wonder what I am on about. The bass seems to be there, and generally easy to follow. But if you switch to Arrau, it is like another world opening up. The balance between the hands is completely different. One particularly revealing example: if you tune in to about 2'30 on Brendel and listen to the next minute, you have that bit where the bass starts climbing up and down, before Beethoven tries (and fails) to scale the mountain for a second time. At 3'10, Brendel's bass disappears altogether in a smudge of accompaniment. It just vanishes. Now, perhaps that's alright. But switch to Arrau and you can hear every single note of the bass. Its absolutely thrilling and, once you know it is there, you miss it when you can't hear it.

Arrau here on youtube

[gurnemanz]

Very interesting Waldo. Brendel used to be my benchmark in Beethoven but an investment in the Pollini complete sonata set has been something of a revelation. Far more definition in the left hand among many other virtues.

Thanks for reminding me about Pollini. It sent me to the garage where I dug out my 3LP box of the late sonatas which was my staple version of those works for many years pre-CD but which I haven't played for ages. It includes a rather fine LP sized booklet. Tempted to upgrade.

[Bryn]

Most probably in the pre Christmas rush Bryn. Life enhancing stuff indeed. Enjoy shopping around for a deal.
Mine was 19.99 on I tunes.

The amazon.co.uk marketplace cheapies are all from over the pond, so risk attracting the attention of HMC&E. However, I have an annual subscription to Qobuz which gives me access to their 320kbps mp3 streams. I might, however, stump up the £29.18 for the CDs from Amazon themselves, which would include the complementary c. 256kbps mp3s. Decisions, decisions.

[Since I already have Pollini's studio recordings of 13 of the best known sonatas on CD (the "Favourite" eight and the five 'lates', I think the Qobuz route makes more sense.]

[Alison]

Yes, Pollini really does bring out the left hand - you really hear it as a dramatic, driving force.

I've just been listening to bits and pieces of Brendel. It's quite a subtle thing; the bass is there, and is sometimes prominent, but when you listen to others, you suddenly find yourself listening anew to the left hand. Here's an example - if you've got spotify, or have the recordings. Listen to the first movement of Beethoven's opus 110. Now, if you listen to Brendel (his Decca recording, which Spotify has as The Late Piano Sonatas) you will probably wonder what I am on about. The bass seems to be there, and generally easy to follow. But if you switch to Arrau, it is like another world opening up. The balance between the hands is completely different. One particularly revealing example: if you tune in to about 2'30 on Brendel and listen to the next minute, you have that bit where the bass starts climbing up and down, before Beethoven tries (and fails) to scale the mountain for a second time. At 3'10, Brendel's bass disappears altogether in a smudge of accompaniment. It just vanishes. Now, perhaps that's alright. But switch to Arrau and you can hear every single note of the bass. Its absolutely thrilling and, once you know it is there, you miss it when you can't hear it.

Arrau here on youtube

Yes, a very good example indeed. Arrau has by far the keener left hand from the outset and Brendel all but disappears at that specific point. Let's try Pollini there.

[clive heath]

I've put the textual analysis that accompanied the Schnabel 78 album here

https://www.flickr.com/photos/131703389@N03/sets/

and you can follow the whole score on imslp here

http://imslp.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No.20,_D.959_(Schubert,_Franz)

I've now listened to the Eschenbach, my only comparison is the Schnabel. They both ignore what appear to me to be significant details but the main thing was mentioned a few posts ago. It's the left hand. Schnabel's is firmer, the harmonies are better supported, chords are fuller. I part company with both (all?) pianists over the Rondo theme. It couldn't be clearer. There is a quaver rest after the 1st and 5th notes of the theme which breaks up the flow of melody and gives some characterisation to a relatively simple idea. Crotchet-quaver-quaver rest comes many times later in the development, in the score at least. You'll also notice that the left-hand minims are given their own phrase mark indicating a contrasting/contrapuntal melodic line. Did you hear that?

On the flickr site, if you click on a page the image enlarges and can be moved up and down anti-intuitively by moving the cursor the wrong way, easy after a while.

[waldo]

This sounds very interesting, Clive. I will look at those links later on. I do worry, though, about putting quite so much emphasis on phrase marks. The imslp edition, since it is out of copyright, will be about a hundred years old - possibly more - so is likely to be very inaccurate indeed. Old editions of Schubert piano sonatas are notorious for added phrase marks, spurious dynamic markings and even altered harmonies.........Unfortunately, I don't have a good, modern edition to compare.

[Nick Armstrong]

Thanks for reminding me about Pollini.

What a classic cover that was. I had the equivalent musicassette box and wore them out...

[silvestrione]

This sounds very interesting, Clive. I will look at those links later on. I do worry, though, about putting quite so much emphasis on phrase marks. The imslp edition, since it is out of copyright, will be about a hundred years old - possibly more - so is likely to be very inaccurate indeed. Old editions of Schubert piano sonatas are notorious for added phrase marks, spurious dynamic markings and even altered harmonies.........Unfortunately, I don't have a good, modern edition to compare.

There's a quaver rest in the second and 6th bar as well, of course. Often ignored. My ABRSM edition, edited by Howard Ferguson, which clearly distinguishes between original and added elements, has no phrase marks over the minims. As far as the left hand goes, just a phrase mark over the quavers in the 4th bar

[waldo]

There's a quaver rest in the second and 6th bar as well, of course. Often ignored. My ABRSM edition, edited by Howard Ferguson, which clearly distinguishes between original and added elements, has no phrase marks over the minims. As far as the left hand goes, just a phrase mark over the quavers in the 4th bar

As I suspected........

I've just had a quick listen to see if anyone observes these rests and the only one who does, so far, is Andras Schiff. Brendel doesn't, nor does Kempff or Lupu.......It sounds quite different when the rests are in play.

[Richard Tarleton]

As I suspected........

I've just had a quick listen to see if anyone observes these rests and the only one who does, so far, is Andras Schiff. Brendel doesn't, nor does Kempff or Lupu.......It sounds quite different when the rests are in play.

Just to say, waldo, thank you and others for some most insightful posts which have given me something to think about The trouble with a forum like this, one has no way of telling what's behind a particular post, hence my bad reaction to #71. I'm not a pianist (I'm a plucker), and have learnt something from this. (I have form with Brendel though, first heard live in 1969 and many times since )