BaL 31.01.15 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 3 in E flat "Eroica"

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"Snivelling", Alpie? I hear it more as a sneer - but I don't think that this is at all intentional: just the way his voice "lies". And there were definite moments - when discussing the Mackerras and the Kleiber, for examples - that he made distinct efforts to lessen this.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

"Snivelling", Alpie? I hear it more as a sneer - but I don't think that this is at all intentional: just the way his voice "lies". And there were definite moments - when discussing the Mackerras and the Kleiber, for examples - that he made distinct efforts to lessen this.

Yes, you are right - more of a sneer, but not pleasant, nevertheless.

[Barbirollians]

Which Karajan recording was he sneering at . I only have the 1962 and it is magnificent like most of that cycle .

[HighlandDougie]

Yes, you are right - more of a sneer, but not pleasant, nevertheless.

I should declare an interest here in that I know Nick Kenyon and have enjoyed pulling his leg in the past about some of his BaL recommendations (and comments on the way to them). I've also mentioned some of the comments on these boards to him but I think that I might not mention to him this time the somewhat egregious comments that his voice has been described as "snivelling", now amended to, "sneering". Just because you might not agree with someone is not, in my book, a good reason to start disparaging them on a personal level.

[Ferretfancy]

I should declare an interest here in that I know Nick Kenyon and have enjoyed pulling his leg in the past about some of his BaL recommendations (and comments on the way to them). I've also mentioned some of the comments on these boards to him but I think that I might not mention to him this time the somewhat egregious comments that his voice has been described as "snivelling", now amended to, "sneering". Just because you might not agree with someone is not, in my book, a good reason to start disparaging them on a personal level.

I'm afraid that opinions about Nicholas Kenyon's actions in the past, his curatorship of the Proms for example, have coloured some people's view of this BAL. I thought it was an excellent stab at dealing with a very difficult task, and often generous in spirit towards performers he had to dismiss at the end.

Last week I complained about the poor balance between the presenters voices and the music examples, with Bartok almost relegated to the background. I have no complaints about the balance this week, I thought it was very good. I shall certainly listen to Harnoncourt on Monday morning, and maybe even buy the Chailly. Altogether it was an excellent BAL

[Stanley Stewart]

I enjoyed Nicholas Kenyon's BAL; crisp and articulate. Did some homework, yesterday, and took a DVD off-air of 'Eroica' from the shelves., rec on BBC 4,
4 Nov, 2011; a fine dramatisation of the first performance of Beethoven's
Sym No 3, in the music room of a chateau, Vienna, 9th June 1804. Adapted by Nick Dear from letters, and diaries, fluently directed by Simon Cellan Jones, effortlessly holding our attention - a complete performance of the symphony by L'Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique/John Eliot Gardiner, cleverly interwoven with the varied reaction from an assembled audience. A gathering, too, of fine character actors; Ian Hart as LvB, Tim Piggott-Smith, Anton Lesser, and Frank Finlay as Haydn, bringing a strong presence and concentration before exclaiming that 'Nothing could ever be the same again'. And LvB's tart comment to a critic, 'You may know something about counterpoint and harmony, you know nothing about life'. Erm,...yes!

Quite surprised that this programme wasn't repeated to coincide with the recent
R3 broadcast of the CBSO complete LvB symphonic cycle. However, BBC4 did mitigate with last night's (30 Jan,) screening of 'Symphony', in which Simon Russell Beale charted a history of classical symphonies, concluding with an explanation as to why the Eroica is regarded as one of the best ever created. Mark Elder saw it as 'pushing the barriers to find emotional truth'.

[silvestrione]

Yep - and the illustration he used to demonstrate the "over-smoothness" of Karajan's approach did exactly the opposite: the accumulation of power, the timing, the morphing from spritely optimism into the scowl of fury, the energy surging from the basses in the lead into the repeated discord (not to mention the ugly sound that the trumpets provided in that climax) - never been bettered.

Reactions to performances are fascinating - I cannot help but feel that NK heard what he expected to hear in the Karajan rather than what Karajan actually gets the orchestra to play.

Very pleased and relieved that I was not the only one to think this. I thought the 1962 Karajan extract manifestly superior to the Harnoncourt, which was fussy and under-powered.

[Roehre]

I enjoyed Nicholas Kenyon's BAL; crisp and articulate. Did some homework, yesterday, and took a DVD off-air of 'Eroica' from the shelves., rec on BBC 4,
4 Nov, 2011; a fine dramatisation of the first performance of Beethoven's
Sym No 3, in the music room of a chateau, Vienna, 9th June 1804. Adapted by Nick Dear from letters, and diaries, fluently directed by Simon Cellan Jones, effortlessly holding our attention - a complete performance of the symphony by L'Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique/John Eliot Gardiner, cleverly interwoven with the varied reaction from an assembled audience. A gathering, too, of fine character actors; Ian Hart as LvB, Tim Piggott-Smith, Anton Lesser, and Frank Finlay as Haydn, bringing a strong presence and concentration before exclaiming that 'Nothing could ever be the same again'. And LvB's tart comment to a critic, 'You may know something about counterpoint and harmony, you know nothing about life'. Erm,...yes! ...

A great DVD indeed, and for me that utterance of Haydn's is really moving.

[Barbirollians]

For those who like their Furtwangler Eroica - here is the 8th Dec 1952 recording that Rob Cowan raved about ( quite rightly IMO )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBF16VHl8Ig

[ardcarp]

I'm afraid that opinions about Nicholas Kenyon's actions in the past, his curatorship of the Proms for example, have coloured some people's view of this BAL. I thought it was an excellent stab at dealing with a very difficult task, and often generous in spirit towards performers he had to dismiss at the end.

I agree entirely, Ferrets, it was a difficult task well accomplished. For those who don't agree with his final choice of COE, he did give cogent reasons for choosing it, and as you say he gave credit to others. Though he's clearly not a Karafan!

[Petrushka]

A great DVD indeed, and for me that utterance of Haydn's is really moving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtA7m3viB70

[vinteuil]

"Snivelling", Alpie? I hear it more as a sneer -.

... I detected no "snivelling" or "sneering" - for me he was throughout lucid, cogent, sympathetic, informed.

Unlike ferney, I found myself agreeing with almost all his matters of taste.

His advocacy of the 1959 Klemperer was telling - I shall have to listen again.

All together, a compelling BAL

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... I detected no "snivelling" or "sneering" - for me he was throughout lucid, cogent, sympathetic, informed.

Unlike ferney, I found myself agreeing with almost all his matters of taste.

His advocacy of the 1959 Klemperer was telling - I shall have to listen again.

All together, a compelling BAL

Matters of taste are just that, but the reviewer is entitled to express them. I just wish he could do so without that ever-present hint of patronising superiority, which I though spoilt a BaL that had much merit.

[vinteuil]

... ah well, I just didn't perceive any "ever-present hint of patronising superiority" ; to me he sounded like an intelligent and informed communicator, the sort I wd be happy to have as lecturer, colleague, or friend...

... which I thought spoilt a BaL that had much merit.

... doesn't that sound just the teensiest bit patronising, Alpie?

[Barbirollians]

Very pleased and relieved that I was not the only one to think this. I thought the 1962 Karajan extract manifestly superior to the Harnoncourt, which was fussy and under-powered.

Absolutely - I thought that the Harnoncourt sounded like a surface skate across the music every time he played an extract . Juxtaposing it with the 1962 Karajan was to its disadvantage . I did not hear smoothness in the Karajan at all .

Klemperer 1959 extract undoubtedly the highlight of the whole BAL !