BaL 31.01.15 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 3 in E flat "Eroica"

**ferneyhoughgeliebte** · 23-01-15, 23:02

I'd honestly have difficulty whittling it down to just five from each category, Pet!

And there are so many I don't know!!!!

(One of which - not that I'm intending to rectify this particular omission - is that conducted by one Maxianno Cobra, who gets through the entire work in 88 minutes and needs two discs!

Come back, Chailly - most is forgiven!)

**makropulos** · 23-01-15, 23:04

Originally posted by Petrushka View Post

I would hope that NK (whose sympathies extend far beyond early music) will recommend one in the HIPP category, one Hipp-ite, one historical, and one traditional 'big band' Eroica.
Choosing just one overall winner is a nonsense.

Hard not to agree with you, Petrushka! Just to add to the confusion, some of the big band/historical performances (e.g. Kleiber/VPO) are, in some ways quite "Hipp-ite"...

**Eine Alpensinfonie** · 23-01-15, 23:08

Originally posted by waldo View Post

Kleiber, who is known for being fast, does 13'47 (but without repeat!); adding on 3 minutes for the exposition, takes him to 16'47 - not fast at all!

Kleiber's VPO account does include the repeat, and takes 16' 54". It's so full of energy.

**waldo** · 23-01-15, 23:13

Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post

Kleiber's VPO account does include the repeat, and takes 16' 54". It's so full of energy.

My mistake.....I was (unknowingly) referring to Erich Kleiber with the Concertgebouw......

**makropulos** · 23-01-15, 23:17

Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post

Kleiber's VPO account does include the repeat, and takes 16' 54". It's so full of energy.

It is indeed. I think it's a really marvellous performance. In terms of timing, it's very close to Mackerras/SCO - 16:40 - (another wonderful recording).

**Eine Alpensinfonie** · 23-01-15, 23:37

Originally posted by waldo View Post

My mistake.....I was (unknowingly) referring to Erich Kleiber with the Concertgebouw......

No mistake at all. We were both referring to different performances by Erich. (I don't think there's a single recording of the work by Carlos, but there are 4 by Erich)

**Petrushka** · 24-01-15, 00:00

Is the VPO/Kleiber recording still available on CD? Looks rather elusive...

**jayne lee wilson** · 24-01-15, 00:08

CBSO/Rattle. Frankfurt 1995. (Unreleased).

I haven't actually heard it yet, of course... hope to put that right tonight or tomorrow...

**Barbirollians** · 24-01-15, 00:30

Originally posted by Petrushka View Post

Is the VPO/Kleiber recording still available on CD? Looks rather elusive...

Last spotted on the Original masters set of EK's Beethoven performances which also includes the fabulous 1947 LPO Pastoral . I bought it on a LP reissue in the 1980s after a rave review by RO in Gramophone and have always loved it above all others .

**verismissimo** · 24-01-15, 09:18

Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post

... Either you whittle it down to about a dozen recordings, or you plump for a "safe" performance that ticks the majority of the boxes...

Zinman / Tonhalle... Obviously.

**Eine Alpensinfonie** · 24-01-15, 09:58

Originally posted by Petrushka View Post

Is the VPO/Kleiber recording still available on CD? Looks rather elusive...

You have to buy a large collection of CDs to acquire it.

Product not available | Presto Music

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4786756

**ferneyhoughgeliebte** · 24-01-15, 11:05

Originally posted by verismissimo View Post

Zinman / Tonhalle... Obviously.

Not really "vanilla" enough to be a "safe" recommendation, veris - the woodwind ornamentation would, I think, rule it out from the final choice.

(I'm not that keen on it as a performance, to be frank. Rather brusque in a hectoring manner, there are other recordings which get many more of the variety of moods in the work. The tempi are very similar to Krivine's, but the pacing is worlds apart - the second group keeps to the opening metronome mark [though there are the traditional rits and ralls towards the ends of phrases. Zinman puts everything under the same spotlight, too little shading for my own reading of the work - limiting its expressivity.

I'm sure he'll lose no sleep over this, and as a realization of the printed score, there's little to complain about, so this is mere opinion, for what it's worth.)

**silvestrione** · 24-01-15, 16:42

Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post

CBSO/Rattle. Frankfurt 1995. (Unreleased).

I haven't actually heard it yet, of course... hope to put that right tonight or tomorrow...

Currently this is my favourite too (and I have heard it!).
In the LP era my favourites were Bohm/VPO and Paul Van Kempen/BPO, the latter not on the list and perhaps not on CD? It was once chosen as 'winner' in a survey in one of those magazines that sprang up in the early CD era (Classic CD was it?)

I've just spotted the contradiction there: obviously it's been on CD!

**Jonathan** · 24-01-15, 17:01

Only just noticed this...there are also recordings of the Liszt transcription by Leslie Howard (Hyperion) and Konstantin Scherbakov (Naxos). I am sure both are available still!

**Once Was 4** · 24-01-15, 18:07

A quick comment about Sir John and the Eroica which some may find of interest. In Beethoven's Eroica he did not just use a 'bumper' for the first horn but had one on the other two horn parts as well. He had all six playing the trio section; I have this recording and it pretty clear that the parts are doubled which detracts, I feel, from the effect of the passage (and please do not get me wrong - I learned my music from Sir John and the Halle in Bradford St. George's Hall and revere his memory - one of my proud possessions is a letter to me from his widow, Evelyn Rothwell, when she helped me to prepare a tribute to one of Sir John's 1st horns, the late Ifor James). From 1966-68 I was taught by the then 1st horn of the Halle Orchestra and he came in to college one day without his usual affability. They had been rehearsing the Eroica with 6 horns as usual and my teacher remarked that "I think the old man would like us to thin out the metal whilst playing!" He explained that Sir John always said that the parts would be doubled as a matter of routine in Beethoven's day. I have often wondered if there was any scholastic basis to this. Comments?

I also remember that he used the full section of five horns to play Beethoven 7 so the first part was not just doubled but tripled. I read a review of the Halle doing Beethoven 7 in the Festival Hall in which the critic had made it clear that he considered this to be an absolute abomination.

Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post

EA - are you sure that there are two Barbirolli /BBCSO versions ? I thought that there was only one recorded by EMI but it has been reissued by different labels . Michael Kennedy's note for the Barb Soc issue mentions an apparently incandescent live account which led to the proposal to go into the studio but the sparks did not quite fly .

It is quite gruff and dogged and has some good things in it but not one of Sir John's best records . If that live account has been discovered and released however I should like to hear it .