BaL 31.01.15 - Beethoven: Symphony no. 3 in E flat "Eroica"

[BBMmk2]

Harnoncourt, COE

Ah that is a surprise. I am listening now. quite frankly as Saturday mornings are rather a busy time for me, I think I better receive a regular doseage of the podcasts.

[seabright]

The reviewer seemed to think that speedy 1st mvt tempos started in LPs days. Clearly he hadn't listened to the CD reissues of the old 78rpm sets of Albert Coates and Sir Henry Wood, both of whom were pretty close to Beethoven's tempo marking ...

Coates / LSO (1926) ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_gkGeCKLOU

Wood / Queens Hall Orchestra (also 1926) ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiw4II4U_to

[Petrushka]

I hadn't listened to the Cluytens in a while so thought I should dig it out .

It is just as wonderful as I remembered . Indeed , it strikes me as a real library recommendation type performance . First movement starts with one of the most shocking recordings of the opening chords I know and then sails along at a good but not mad lick . The funeral march is not too slow but nor does it sound jaunty like the Chailly ! It is very moving indeed . A zippy Scherzo follows and then a performance of the finale that does not treat it like an afterthought .

Oh and that wind playing - marvellous .

Knocks Harnoncourt into a veritable millinery of cocked hats .

Fully agree with this and with Bryn upthread. The woodwind playing (the oboe in particular) is indeed marvellous and the EMI engineers provide better sound than their DG colleagues do for Karajan, fully in tune with Cluytens' conception of the piece.

Had I been doing this BaL I'd have been torn between Cluytens and the BPO/Abbado, second recording in Rome.

[makropulos]

For what it's worth, I thought NK did a superb job with this almost impossible task. I found it balanced, well-informed, enthusiastic - and thoroughly enjoyable. Of his final choices the only one I couldn't get excited about was Harnoncourt, but that's all part of the fun of BAL when it's done well. The praise for Klemperer was very well justified, and his enthusiasm for Chailly is something I share. It was good to hear some of Scherchen's and Munch's recording among the less obvious contenders, and I liked NK's positive approach to illustrations, for the most part showing recordings at their best.

[verismissimo]

Yes and I thought he did a particularly good job identifying the various stylistic and musical fashions and trends amongst this vast list of recordings.

His final list was much more interesting and convincing than his #1 choice IMO.

[Nick Armstrong]

i can't wait for the programme it is going to be a monster event

What a minefield!! I just wonder what critics do in a situation like this!!

Well I think the answer is in NK's case, a bloody good job! As usual, BaL was reserved for Sunday morning followed by a read of this thread. Bit surprised by some of the comments since the broadcast, I have to say.

I thought it was a classic BaL and totally agree, for instance, with v & v:

... I detected no "snivelling" or "sneering" - for me he was throughout lucid, cogent, sympathetic, informed...

All together, a compelling BAL

Yes and I thought he did a particularly good job identifying the various stylistic and musical fashions and trends amongst this vast list of recordings.

Yes - apart from cogent detailed comments and a good range of comparative examples, it was that structure to the review I valued, embracing the full arc of the recorded history of the piece. Full value given to the older recordings (surprising that approach hasn't garnered more accolades in this thread) and to the subsequent stages of performance styles and approaches.

Of course there are particular views expressed that one might disagree with; but even that is enlightening.

Some specific comments...

I can't seem to get on with ever so slightly self aware Chailly version: somehow the newness of approach gets in the way of a full exploration of the symphonic discourse. Plenty of vim, not much tension.

I so agree, Alison. I think he sometimes makes the music sound a bit silly.... It was the other recording mentioned in conjunction with the Chailly which really caught my ear, Jansons with his Bavarians. The first movement sounded wonderful... and although NK in the finale preferred Chailly due to that tempo issue in the penultimate (Andante?) section, I thought it sounded as if Chailly skated through that and am very very tempted to hear what Jansons made of that fantastic passage with the slightly slower tempo that NK criticised.

No mention of the Cluytens !

I'm listening to that version as I type! I was persuaded by advocates here to get his set of the symphonies last year, but hadn't heard No. 3. IT'S ELECTRIFYING !!! Impactful, brilliantly paced, ravishingly played! So yes - perhaps the most surprising omission from this BaL.

Then again, I loved the resounding drubbing with a wooden spoon administered to Thielemann

I think it would be a good addition to BaL for the reviewer to award the said ligneous item of cutlery each week!

So overall - a terrific example of why BaL should always be getting on for an hour, imo, and why the solo approach is best: what a contrast with the trivial and utterly pointless chit-chat padding in recent 'fireside twosome' BaLs...

[silvestrione]

For what it's worth, I thought NK did a superb job with this almost impossible task. I found it balanced, well-informed, enthusiastic - and thoroughly enjoyable. Of his final choices the only one I couldn't get excited about was Harnoncourt, but that's all part of the fun of BAL when it's done well. The praise for Klemperer was very well justified, and his enthusiasm for Chailly is something I share. It was good to hear some of Scherchen's and Munch's recording among the less obvious contenders, and I liked NK's positive approach to illustrations, for the most part showing recordings at their best.

I agree with your comments almost entirely.

On Klemperer, wasn't it always the 1955 mono that was so well received, indeed, cited as the best available version very often, e.g in the days when Gramophone magazine had a list of Recommended Recordings towards the back? The 1959 was usually seen as a bit ponderous in comparison.

[makropulos]

I agree with your comments almost entirely.

On Klemperer, wasn't it always the 1955 mono that was so well received, indeed, cited as the best available version very often, e.g in the days when Gramophone magazine had a list of Recommended Recordings towards the back? The 1959 was usually seen as a bit ponderous in comparison.

Yes, I think it was, and I'm certainly very glad to have both of them. As NK's illustrations showed, the 1959 one is really imposing, especially in the slow movement where Klemperer's approach is a lot broader in the remake. They're both magnificent and even if I marginally prefer the earlier one in the first movement, the Funeral March in 1959 is an extraordinary experience (more so than when it used to be disfigured by a side-break in the middle...)

[tigajen]

Iwas particularly interested in this BAL as I have several Eroicas but none of which completely satisfied me.Nor did any of the examples played.However prompted by the views expressed here,and other reviews I have ordered a s/h set of the symphonies/Cluytens for a little over £7 inc p&p.Thank you Cal,Pet,& Barb.

[Nick Armstrong]

Surely we can get to 200?

Hate to do this, Alpie, but having checked the Eroicas on my shelf, there's one that's not on the list.... and is currently available on download:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Halffter-Sinfonietta-Beethoven-Sinfon%C3%ADa-Eroica/dp/B00C8X7W3U/ref=sr_1_3?s=dmusic&ie=UTF8&qid=1422807033&sr=1-3&keywords=Orquestra+de+Cadaqués%2C+Jaime+Mart%C3%ADn

- Orquestra de Cadaqués, conducted by Jaime Martín



It was a gift

Aside from Immerseel and Gardiner on download only, I also have Cluytens, Klemperer '59, Furtwangler '44 (VPO) & '50 (BPO). Bruno Walter....

...oh and two others not on the list!

Stephen Kovacevich / BBC Phil - BBC Music Magazine cover disc, does that count?

And Svetlanov/USSRSO - available on amazon for megaroubles!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-No...oica+svetlanov

[Nick Armstrong]

Iwas particularly interested in this BAL as I have several Eroicas but none of which completely satisfied me.Nor did any of the examples played.However prompted by the views expressed here,and other reviews I have ordered a s/h set of the symphonies/Cluytens for a little over £7 inc p&p.Thank you Cal,Pet,& Barb.

Do please come back once you've listened and give your reaction, esp. in comparison with the others you currently own which you're not entirely happy with!

[waldo]

I have to say I was disappointed with this one. Not the final decision, but the journey there. All Kenyon did was play an excerpt and then tell us whether he liked it or not. At no point did he ever say anything about the symphony itself. There was no overall vision or understanding. Everything was constantly referred to this or that interpretative fashion. He didn't even address the issue of structure: how the thing fits together. A newcomer listening to this wouldn't learn a single thing about the symphony: it's place in the canon, its peculiar pattern of movements etc All they would learn would be what Kenyon personally enjoyed.

Everything comes back to taste at some point, but not once did he offer any other rationale for his choices. I remember an excellent Beethoven 6 BAL (John Deathridge, I think) in which reasons were given for each decision - and not just that the presenter liked them that way. He had a particular understanding of the symphony and this was used to anchor the verdicts as we went along. It all made sense, even if you disagreed. With Kenyon, all we had was I like this (because it is fast), I don't like this (because I like it fast) etc.

I didn't find him snivelling or sneering, as some did, but I did think he was a little presumptuous in places. He kept referring to "our" tastes, as if we all happened to agree with him. At one point, he even referred to "our" generation(!). The idea seemed to be that all of us had moved beyond the mistakes of history. We'd been through the embarrassing Karajan phase (a bit like sleeping with a colleague after a boozy office party), and now we all liked things just the same way he did.

[kernelbogey]

A great DVD indeed, and for me that utterance of Haydn's is really moving.

I'm very grateful for having my attention drawn to this splendid film. The Youtube version flagged up in post 161 has subtitles. This one doesn't.

I assume that the musicians we see in the film are in fact musicians of the OR&R...? The credits give no other indication. If so, the film is all the more impressive.

[Barbirollians]

Also rather a surprise to hear no mention of Szell .

[Bryn]

Harnoncourt/COE


Interesting that, with the exception of the van Immerseel, Mackerras and Bruggen, I disagreed with all NK's opinions. A balanced survey of a wide range of performance styles -and I share his general approach to the work, but my tastes are almost exclusively opposed to his. No mention of Krivine ... which I find an incomprehensible (to be polite) omission.

Baffling indeed. Listening again to the Manze this evening I am reminded that it is the tempo of the second movement which I found its weak point. Klemperer could pull off such a tempo but I don't think Manze does.