BaL 3.01.15 - Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli

[BBMmk2]

Cali, yes well observed, my learned friend! Saturday mornings are rather busy for me usually. Either jamming g with my friend on keyboards, or with MrsBBM, out and abouting as you do.

[Nick Armstrong]

that that 'that'

THAT has to be some sort of record, at whatever pitch you sing it !!

Reply - yes it does seem a little odd; when I heard it yesterday. I'd thought she must have said "at a higher pitch" (and even then, "or something in between" becomes awkward") but listening again, it's very clear that she says "that":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04wm1nq

(at around the 40 min point). She might have just tripped, but it's almost as if there has been a tape edit cutting out a phrase from the end of the previous sentence ("This recording is also sung at the lower pitch most commonly associated with music written in Rome at that time, rather than the higher pitch of the Hagersten Motet Choir that we've just heard.", or some such.

Yes that was my guess. I thought I heard slight differences in her tone of voice. Post-prod shambles, I think.

We do listen carefully, don't we? Shows we care!

[teamsaint]

just to lower the tone for a minute, the Oxford Camerata disc appears to be available as part of this set, available for a song.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Renaissance-Choral-Treasures-Various-Artists/dp/B0000272FP/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420400151&sr=1-3&keywords=renaissance+choral+music

I have checked, and the Palestrina Missa Papae Marcelli does seem to be there in full.

[gurnemanz]

just to lower the tone for a minute, the Oxford Camerata disc appears to be available as part of this set, available for a song.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Renaissance-Choral-Treasures-Various-Artists/dp/B0000272FP/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1420400151&sr=1-3&keywords=renaissance+choral+music

I have checked, and the Palestrina Missa Papae Marcelli does seem to be there in full.

I got this threefer a while ago, presumably when it was first issued. Very recommendable and good value, also includes:
Tallis: Mass for Four Voices and Motets
Victoria: Masses and Lobo: Versa est in luctum

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I got this threefer a while ago, presumably when it was first issued. Very recommendable and good value, also includes:
Tallis: Mass for Four Voices and Motets
Victoria: Masses and Lobo: Versa est in luctum

I have all those recordings separately - at the price ts has pointed to, this is an exceptionally generous bargain!

[ardcarp]

I've come rather late to the party, having only just caught up on this BAL. I have to say, rather against the flow, I couldn't quite get Ms Gill's drift. What was she after? The two versions she favoured (Oxford Camerata and close second Tallis Scholars) are both excellent, of course, but Oh So English! Only one continental group (I think) was played...and probably rightly dismissed.....but surely there's some other, different, and equally valid Palestrina sounds out there in the wider world?

Some years ago (for reasons I can't fully recall...probably financial) I sang tenor in a French choir doing Palestrina amongst other things. It was to start with utterly alien, literally in one sense because they have their own idiosyncratic pronunciation of Latin. [Who's to say ours isn't?] But there were also great swellings up and dyings away, not to mention pulling the tempo around all the time. But after a while I thought to myself that their tradition of singing Italianate music liturgically has probably rolled continuously through the centuries, uninterrupted by minor inconveniences such as The Reformation, so who am I to presume to know how it should be done?

Are there any continental performances on CD which anyone knows and can recommend?

[Nick Armstrong]

I've come rather late to the party, having only just caught up on this BAL. I have to say, rather against the flow, I couldn't quite get Ms Gill's drift. What was she after?

Funny you say that, ards... I was late with this one and I too just dont get Ms Gill.

Been trying to find time since yesterday when I listened a second time through (third, if you count the time I fell asleep during it at the weekend ) to say that I find her style oddly elusive - apart from the obscurity sometimes (see the specific example I gave up-thread; also she uses "it" a lot and one's not sure what she's talking about), her comments have an impressionistic quality, and are very subjective. I ended up learning almost nothing about the music, getting some idea of what she 'felt', and being able to remember very little of the haze of words that surrounded the musical extracts. The latter made it a worthwhile listen, as ever - but I don't buy her approach.

[ardcarp]

...glad I'm not the only one.

[Roehre]

I've come rather late to the party, having only just caught up on this BAL. I have to say, rather against the flow, I couldn't quite get Ms Gill's drift. What was she after? The two versions she favoured (Oxford Camerata and close second Tallis Scholars) are both excellent, of course, but Oh So English! Only one continental group (I think) was played...and probably rightly dismissed.....but surely there's some other, different, and equally valid Palestrina sounds out there in the wider world?

Some years ago (for reasons I can't fully recall...probably financial) I sang tenor in a French choir doing Palestrina amongst other things. It was to start with utterly alien, literally in one sense because they have their own idiosyncratic pronunciation of Latin. [Who's to say ours isn't?] But there were also great swellings up and dyings away, not to mention pulling the tempo around all the time. But after a while I thought to myself that their tradition of singing Italianate music liturgically has probably rolled continuously through the centuries, uninterrupted by minor inconveniences such as The Reformation, so who am I to presume to know how it should be done?

Are there any continental performances on CD which anyone knows and can recommend?

Netherlands Chamber Choir, Risto Joost is a continental group and IMO as representative of a way to approach Palestrina (or for that matter: any of the Flemish-Franco polyphonists and their italian and spanish contemporaries) as is the English one.
I don't like the English pronunciation of latin, but on these Isles one doesn't have much chance to escape it.

A group which is likely to have adopted a style which actually has roots with a far past of performing this type of works is Ensemble organum/Michel Peres (most on [French] Harmonia Mundi.
They unfortunately (AFAIK !) haven't recorded the Papa Marcelli, but did e.g Machaut (that's 2 centuries earlier - I know)

For continental groups in this repertoire in general, the Ricercar and the Avie labels are places to explore.

[jean]

I don't like the English pronunciation of latin, but on these Isles one doesn't have much chance to escape it.

We lost the English pronunciation centuries ago - what we're attempting is the Italian one.

I know the diphthongs can creep in...but is it that bad an effort, on the whole?

[DracoM]

Spot on, Caliban and ardcarp. Just caught up with it, and kept muttering........'eh? What are you on about?'

[Roehre]

We lost the English pronunciation centuries ago - what we're attempting is the Italian one.

I know the diphthongs can creep in...but is it that bad an effort, on the whole?

attempting, indeed

[ardcarp]

Netherlands Chamber Choir, Risto Joost is a continental group and IMO as representative of a way to approach Palestrina (or for that matter: any of the Flemish-Franco polyphonists and their italian and spanish contemporaries) as is the English one.
I don't like the English pronunciation of latin, but on these Isles one doesn't have much chance to escape it.

A group which is likely to have adopted a style which actually has roots with a far past of performing this type of works is Ensemble organum/Michel Peres (most on [French] Harmonia Mundi.
They unfortunately (AFAIK !) haven't recorded the Papa Marcelli, but did e.g Machaut (that's 2 centuries earlier - I know)

For continental groups in this repertoire in general, the Ricercar and the Avie labels are places to explore.

Thanks, Roehre.

[jean]

I don't like the English pronunciation of latin, but on these Isles one doesn't have much chance to escape it.

Can you explain exactly what it is that's so offensive?

[Roehre]

Can you explain exactly what it is that's so "offensive"?

the lack of really open vowels, especially the o and the a.
It's this what quite often mares especially German texts sung by British-English singers (the American-english are generally much better in that respect, though this does not apply to most of their choirs)