BaL 27.12.14 - Schubert: Symphony no. 8 in B minor

[Roehre]

I believe there are a number of works that Schubert left in an unfinished state and that the 8th is the best known example. But is it unfinished at all? It is a perfectly satisfying two movement symphony and my feeling is that attempts to 'complete' a work that already is complete are misguided.

There exist dozens of unfinished works by Schubert (as by Mozart, btw), to mention some:
5 symphonies (including the "Unfinished")
at least two string quartets, including the Quartetsatz in c D803
at least five operas
at least 4 piano sonatas
dozens of songs
many chamber music works, including a windoctet.

All these works have one thing in common: they all stop half way a movement. Of some (like the symphonies, including the "unfinished") sketches are left too (of the 3rd mvt of the b-minor there are 4 pages "full"-score of the scherzo with two pages of melody sketches for the same movement, e.g.).

It is simply inconceivable that the symphony in b was meant to be a two movement work.

[jayne lee wilson]

Some strong feelings around here... so, managed to secure a lossless download of this RN/LCP Schubert 8th - I'll listen to it soon and report back...
You're all breathless with anticipation now, aren't ya......

I mean, I can hardly share in the fun of trading insults if I haven't heard the damn thing.

[verismissimo]

There exist dozens of unfinished works by Schubert (as by Mozart, btw), to mention some:

dozens of songs

All these works have one thing in common: they all stop half way a movement. Of some (like the symphonies, including the "unfinished") sketches are left too (of the 3rd mvt of the b-minor there are 4 pages "full"-score of the scherzo with two pages of melody sketches for the same movement, e.g.).

It is simply inconceivable that the symphony in b was meant to be a two movement work.

Roehre, we had lots of these sung live at the Oxford Lieder Festival's Schubert Project in October. It was fascinating. Some ended abruptly mid-bar, while others carried on for a while voice alone.

Has anyone played the skeletal third movement of the 'Unfinished' in this way, ie just carrying on with what is on the page, stopping where Schubert stopped?

[visualnickmos]

Some strong feelings around here... so, managed to secure a lossless download of this RN/LCP Schubert 8th - I'll listen to it soon and report back...
You're all breathless with anticipation now, aren't ya......

I mean, I can hardly share in the fun of trading insults if I haven't heard the damn thing.

As always, I look forward to your review.

[Stanfordian]

Norrington / London Classical PLayers

I liked de Souza's measured, careful approach. Made me listen anew to the warhorse adn no matter who 'won'. it was a worthwhile lecturette.

DracoM, I understood the choice for LCP/Norrington put forward by the reviewer Souza but I think he was looking far, far too much at the detail and not the overall picture of the performance.

[Nick Armstrong]

DracoM, I understood the choice for LCP/Norrington put forward by the reviewer Souza but I think he was looking far, far too much at the detail and not the overall picture of the performance.

Having at last caught up yesterday with this BAL, that was my initial reaction too - however I suspend judgement slightly having I confess fallen asleep about 15 minutes in and woken up for the final 10 minutes and the final 'reveal' in the metaphorical library. I did however hasten here since my main reaction to that choice was that the fur would probably be flying here, and I wasn't disappointed!

I shall give another listen as de Souza was very listenable-to, and I've always had a big problem with 'traditional' performances of this piece, the supposed 'emotion' of which has always left me completely cold...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It could be but I feel sure that if there was never any doubt about the matter I wouldn't be left wondering where the rest of the symphony had got to after it had finished.

But there is "doubt about the matter" - so much so as to amount to ruddy great certainty that it is incomplete: it ends in the Subdominant!

[Roehre]

...
Has anyone played the skeletal third movement of the 'Unfinished' in this way, ie just carrying on with what is on the page, stopping where Schubert stopped?

I don't know of any recording, but I was present at a concert where it was played as such. The conductor just stopped mid-air, hold his baton and then laid it onto the score. Very impressive, I must say [likely he copied Toscanini doing so at the premiere of Puccini's Turandot].

To give you an idea where the "full" score ends: it's at the very end of the oboe solo melody, where you expect (and the editions invariably have) a repeat of the opening bars [effectively making the last bar of the manuscript being folowed by a double bar and repeat sign]

[cloughie]

Having at last caught up yesterday with this BAL, that was my initial reaction too - however I suspend judgement slightly having I confess fallen asleep about 15 minutes in and woken up for the final 10 minutes and the final 'reveal' in the metaphorical library. I did however hasten here since my main reaction to that choice was that the fur would probably be flying here, and I wasn't disappointed!

I shall give another listen as de Souza was very listenable-to, and I've always had a big problem with 'traditional' performances of this piece, the supposed 'emotion' of which has always left me completely cold...

I didn't think the HIPP sharpshooter RN made it last that long and sending you into the land of nod does it no favours!

[Nick Armstrong]

I didn't think the HIPP sharpshooter RN made it last that long and sending you into the land of nod does it no favours!

I was talking about the 45 minute BAL actually, cloughs.... going to try and hear the whole thing today !

[teamsaint]

I was talking about the 45 minute BAL actually, cloughs.... going to try and hear the whole thing today !

Way to go, you party animal !!

beats Jools Holland's hooteenannaynnoneooney, anyway.


(just realised this is my sole contribution to this most typical of threads.......although it has added to my enjoyment of my current Schubert fest.... Gunter Wand , Anybody?)

[Nick Armstrong]

Way to go, you party animal !!

beats Jools Holland's hooteenannaynnoneooney, anyway.

Said today y'hear - not tonight! Anyway tonight we have some watchin' of my Xmas bluray box of the complete 'Twin Peaks' ... PARTY ON, DUDE!!

[teamsaint]

Said today y'hear - not tonight! Anyway tonight we have some watchin' of my Xmas bluray box of the complete 'Twin Peaks' ... PARTY ON, DUDE!!

Twin Peaks eh? always wondered what that was all about !!

Enjoy !!

[gurnemanz]

Roehre, we had lots of these sung live at the Oxford Lieder Festival's Schubert Project in October. It was fascinating. Some ended abruptly mid-bar, while others carried on for a while voice alone.

Graham Johnson included quite a few of the fragments completed by the Belgian Fransiscan monk Reinhard van Hoorickx in the Hyperion complete song edtion - an interesting chap and Schubert obsessive (obituary here). His efforts are much to be appreciated by Schubert Lieder fans.

The 13 year-old Schubert's D1 is incomplete in that there is a vocal line (about 12 minutes in performance) but no text. Johnson does it with Stephen Varcoe fitting the text of the poem Lebenstraum to it. I've recently got the Naxos Complete Edition and on the disc "Rarities, Fragments, and Alternative Versions", Ulrich Eisenlohr interestingly lets a cello play the vocal line.

To complicate matters further, the young Schubert set the text again in D36 and this time did leave it incomplete. On Hyperion Johnson and Varcoe just sing what is there (about 6 minutes) and then stop, whereas on Naxos they opt for Detlef Roth to sing what Schubert set and then recite the rest of the poem without accompaniment. This takes the whole thing up to about 9 minutes.

[waldo]

Way to go, you party animal !!

beats Jools Holland's hooteenannaynnoneooney, anyway.


(just realised this is my sole contribution to this most typical of threads.......although it has added to my enjoyment of my current Schubert fest.... Gunter Wand , Anybody?)

Don't forget that Holland's "Cheetananny" is actually recorded weeks in advance. Weeks. When he counts down to the New Year, with Big Ben bonging in the background, it is actually November. I watched it for years without knowing. So do many other people, apparently.

Back on topic: Wand would be my top pick.........