BaL 27.12.14 - Schubert: Symphony no. 8 in B minor

[Bryn]

How childish . You like it I don't there is no need for petty personal attacks just because someone disagree with you .

Your words. I simply held the mirror up for you.

[Richard Tarleton]

My old friend and sometime tutor Hans Georg Schenk, author of The Mind of the European Romantics (Constable, 1966), used to say that he hoped to hear the last two movements of the Unfinished on entering Heaven. What he was getting at (he was a devout Catholic) was what he saw as the noumenal quality of the work - the way Schubert is able on occasion to twitch aside the curtain of mere musical phenomenon, and give us a glimpse of something not normally accessible to our senses. Is this synonymous with "the 20th Century accretions of sentimentality" ? I like to think not. I recognised RN and the LCPs in an instant: rattling through what for me will remain an ethereal work is to miss the point. Completions of 8 by other, earthbound, composers miss the point. Schubert is the only composer who could have completed it. But with what? Perhaps we search in vain for the ideal recording. I only bother to own one; I've only heard one live performance which came close but would doubtless have found itself on the BAL scrapheap (LSO/Leinsdorf, 1972). Perhaps the occasion had something to do with it.

But I enjoyed the programme.

[verismissimo]

My old friend and sometime tutor Hans Georg Schenk, author of The Mind of the European Romantics (Constable, 1966), used to say that he hoped to hear the last two movements of the Unfinished on entering Heaven. What he was getting at (he was a devout Catholic) was what he saw as the noumenal quality of the work - the way Schubert is able on occasion to twitch aside the curtain of mere musical phenomenon, and give us a glimpse of something not normally accessible to our senses. Is this synonymous with "the 20th Century accretions of sentimentality" ? I like to think not. I recognised RN and the LCPs in an instant: rattling through what for me will remain an ethereal work is to miss the point. Completions of 8 by other, earthbound, composers miss the point. Schubert is the only composer who could have completed it. But with what? Perhaps we search in vain for the ideal recording. I only bother to own one; I've only heard one live performance which came close but would doubtless have found itself on the BAL scrapheap (LSO/Leinsdorf, 1972). Perhaps the occasion had something to do with it.

But I enjoyed the programme.

Wonderful post, RT.

[Tony Halstead]

Wonderful post, RT.

Seconded!

It's interesting that RT mentions Leinsdorf, a greatly underrated conductor these days, IMV.

I was lucky enough to have played in the very performance he cites ( LSO, Leinsdorf, 1972, Royal Festival Hall)

[Richard Tarleton]

Seconded!

It's interesting that RT mentions Leinsdorf, a greatly underrated conductor these days, IMV.

I was lucky enough to have played in the very performance he cites ( LSO, Leinsdorf, 1972, Royal Festival Hall)

Wow, Tony - and what an occasion it was. I no longer have the programme, but Leinsdorf took to the piano to perform Shepherd on the Rock with Margaret Price and Jack Brymer, followed by Mahler 4. I remember the swashbucking John Georgiadis with his two violins.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Leinsdorf, a greatly underrated conductor these days, IMV.

MV2

[gurnemanz]

It's interesting that RT mentions Leinsdorf, a greatly underrated conductor these days, IMV.

I was lucky enough to have played in the very performance he cites ( LSO, Leinsdorf, 1972, Royal Festival Hall)

He conducted one of my most memorable Proms from 1971. Stravinsky Pulcinella, Firebird and Ida Haendel doing the Brahms in a striking flame-red dress.

[Barbirollians]

Your words. I simply held the mirror up for you.

No you turned a comment on a recording into a personal attack - your post was petty, spiteful and childish . This appears to be a repeated trait of yours when a recording you admire is criticised .

[waldo]

No you turned a comment on a recording into a personal attack - your post was petty, spiteful and childish . This appears to be a repeated trait of yours when a recording you admire is criticised .

You are absolutely right, Barbirollians. This is not the kind of thing any of us want to see on a forum like this. Disagreeing with someone, even vehemently, doesn't require a personal attack of this nature.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Completions of 8 by other, earthbound, composers miss the point. Schubert is the only composer who could have completed it. But with what?.

In the case of this work, the answer is not so problematic. Schubert left a sketch of the 3rd movement that leaves only the second part of the trio open to speculation. And there are strong musicological reasons to support the idea that the B minor Entr'acte from Rosamunde could have been the indended finale. We shall probably never know, but it is hardly credible that Schubert wanted his symphony to be performed as a 2 movement work.

[cloughie]

In the case of this work, the answer is not so problematic. Schubert left a sketch of the 3rd movement that leaves only the second part of the trio open to speculation. And there are strong musicological reasons to support the idea that the B minor Entr'acte from Rosamunde could have been the indended finale. We shall probably never know, but it is hardly credible that Schubert wanted his symphony to be performed as a 2 movement work.

No, but it has stood the test of time in that form. He either ran out of ideas or couldn't be bothered to finish it! I enjoy the fun of speculative completions - as I do orchestrations of piano works, I love Tomita's electronic reworks and other tinkerings provided they are marketed as what they are.

[Petrushka]

In the case of this work, the answer is not so problematic. Schubert left a sketch of the 3rd movement that leaves only the second part of the trio open to speculation. And there are strong musicological reasons to support the idea that the B minor Entr'acte from Rosamunde could have been the indended finale. We shall probably never know, but it is hardly credible that Schubert wanted his symphony to be performed as a 2 movement work.

I believe there are a number of works that Schubert left in an unfinished state and that the 8th is the best known example. But is it unfinished at all? It is a perfectly satisfying two movement symphony and my feeling is that attempts to 'complete' a work that already is complete are misguided.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I believe there are a number of works that Schubert left in an unfinished state and that the 8th is the best known example. But is it unfinished at all? It is a perfectly satisfying two movement symphony and my feeling is that attempts to 'complete' a work that already is complete are misguided.

But isn't that mainly because we are so familiar with the trumcated 2- movement version.

[cloughie]

But isn't that mainly because we are so familiar with the trumcated 2- movement version.

I think that is an unanswerable question.

[Petrushka]

But isn't that mainly because we are so familiar with the trumcated 2- movement version.

It could be but I feel sure that if there was never any doubt about the matter I wouldn't be left wondering where the rest of the symphony had got to after it had finished. There are any number of symphonies in movements other than the standard 4. This one just happens to be in two movements.