BaL 27.12.14 - Schubert: Symphony no. 8 in B minor

[Petrushka]

I was thinking in terms of this morning's reviewer rather than as a general rule. I think if I were ever asked to do a BaL (Oh no! Not that dream again) I would tend to approach it the way you suggested - three recommendations: a Historical, "Traditional", and HIPP version (when I worked in a record shop - MANY years ago! - this is what I would do if asked for a recommendation and I didn't know the customer's preferences). But it was clear that today's reviewer didn't like any of the old-school performances, preferring those which more accurately reflect how research suggests the composer expected his Music to sound (which, incidentally, I don't think displays any absence of "breadth", Alpie). In such a cased, he would be being dishonest to suggest an enthusiasm where, in fact he felt none. (He did seem to teeter towards Abbado & the CoE before dismissing him.)

I'm no fan of Mr De Sousa, by the way - not since he presented a couple of Discovering Musics nearly twenty years ago in which he seemed to be suggesting that Brahms' 1st and Schumann's 2nd were both written by Barbara Cartland - but given the enormity of his task today, he made his case rather well and with fewer idiocies than is his wont.

FWIW - I would strongly urge anyone interested in this work to own at least one Furtwangler recording (in the absence of the final two movements, a conductor might feel it necessary to adopt the liberties with the second Movement that CdS so dismissed in order to make a more satisfactory concert item of the work; and WF's re-imagining of the proportions reveal valid insights of their own) and one "completion" of the work (to give a better idea of the proportions Schubert had in mind). I don't argue with the ultimate accolade going to Norrington (which is a fantastic bargain), but my own preference would be for Goodman & the Hanover Band. For "old school"/"traditional"; well, there my problem would be choosing: Klemperer (Philharmonia and VPO), Bohm, Karajan (with the Philharmonia), Sawallisch, Walter ... how on earth do you settle for just one?!

You are making my case for me very well indeed! By the way, I wonder if M. Vinteuil has thrown out all of his 'traditional' recordings?

[Roehre]

.... I have a worry (which others may share) that the traditional symphony orchestra recordings of certain works are gradually being consigned to history and that symphony orchestras will stop, or at least reduce, their playing of them on the grounds that it is 'wrong'.

I'm not altogether sure how a reviewer can meaningfully compare recordings by, say Klemperer and Norrington and adjudge one superior to the other. There has to be room for both.

I really don't worry about traditional orchestras' recordings being consigned to history: we now still do listen to "historic" recordings of works which we don't perform that way anymore. It's the interpretation which defines a performance and/or recording.

There might be a period in which "traditional" orchestras might avoid repertoire which the think they would perform " wrongly". But even if this were the case, the tide will turn. The Concertgebouw orchestra hardly did play JSBach between approximately 1975 and 1995, but then returned to play it in a leaner way, as well as, to the contrary, the romantic way as was used in the beginning of the orchestra's existence, as a double kind of returning to the roots, in this case the music's one as well as the orchestra's one. Chailly does the same now in Leipzig, e.g. with the St.Matthew Passion.

HIP and "traditional" performances are equal. Whether one interprets according to one's own inclination -as many of the past's super-egos did-, or according to what are supposed the composers' own imaginations: it is ONE interpretation of a work, never THE one and only.

I must confess that I personally hardly am interested in Karajan's or Furtwängler's or Barbirolli's interpretation/recording of a work, but much more in the composer's intentions as laid down in the score and hence less inclined to praise any of them.
But I have to confess too, that I quite often do have doubts whether a HIP recording/performance really is doing the score justice.
It is and remains an interpretation, with only a different approach as to how to come to that particular interpretation.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But I have to confess too, that I quite often do have doubts whether a HIP recording/performance really is doing the score justice.
It is and remains an interpretation, with only a different approach to how to come to that particular interpretation.

As one of our most experienced posters has said, the score is only the recipe.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As one of our most experienced posters has said, the score is only the recipe.

Yeah - but if the recipe says "Strawberry Jam", DON'T think it'll be as good with Tomato Ketchup!

[waldo]

Yeah - but if the recipe says "Strawberry Jam", DON'T think it'll be as good with Tomato Ketchup!

You obviously haven't been to the Fat Duck.....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You obviously haven't been to the Fat Duck.....

[vinteuil]

By the way, I wonder if M. Vinteuil has thrown out all of his 'traditional' recordings?

... good Lord, no - they often provide an interesting - instructive - take on a particular work.

I'm a great fan of 'historic' recordings; if for example I want to know how Schubert - or Mozart - or Handel - sounded to 1950s ears accustomed to a nineteenth century symphony orchestra, then this certainly is the way to go...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You obviously haven't been to the Fat Duck.....

Blimey! Have you seen their prices???!!!

[waldo]

Blimey! Have you seen their prices???!!!

Just checked. Dear God. That's a lot of fish and chips. It also says you need to allow 4 and half hours for the meal: about the same as Gotterdammerung.

[Petrushka]

Blimey! Have you seen their prices???!!!

And the wine list!! A bottle of 1995 Krug, Blanc de Noirs, Clos d'Ambonnay, Brut will set you back £4600.

Think we might have strayed a bit off topic

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm a great fan of 'historic' recordings; if for example I want to know how Schubert - or Mozart - or Handel - sounded to 1950s ears accustomed to a nineteenth century symphony orchestra, then this certainly is the way to go...

According the BaL winner, 19th century orchestras sounded like his former SWR Stuttgart. A few people do believe him.

[Barbirollians]

Sounds like a BAL well worth avoiding . The Norrington is a complete also ran to my ears rather like his Brahms 1 .

[Bryn]

Sounds like a BAL well worth avoiding . The Norrington is a complete also ran to my ears rather like his Brahms 1 .

Well it would not do to have your views challenged by the likes of de Souza, would it?

[cloughie]

Sounds like a BAL well worth avoiding . The Norrington is a complete also ran to my ears rather like his Brahms 1 .

There are any number of good recordings - as well as aforementioned Klemperer, Karajan, Bohm, Krips, Beecham, Jochum, Maazel, Schuricht, Sargent, Solti, Monteux, Munch, Giulini, Mehta, Walter, Szell and Wand.

[Petrushka]

There are any number of good recordings - as well as aforementioned Klemperer, Karajan, Bohm, Krips, Beecham, Jochum, Maazel, Schuricht, Sargent, Solti, Monteux, Munch, Giulini, Mehta, Walter, Szell and Wand.

Just so. I haven't heard the Norrington so can't comment on it but I think it is crucial to the continuance of BaL as a format that a recommendation is made to suit those looking for a traditional approach and a HIPP one. Whichever way you are inclined should be apparent to you from the extracts played. It isn't a battle between two different approaches: there is room for both and BaL needs to reflect that instead of choosing a single 'winner' (which is invariably HIPP these days).

I'm glad that Roehre is optimistic enough to predict that the wheel will turn again. Perhaps in the next decade or three, reviewers as yet still in short trousers (or skirts) will marvel at the wonders that Karajan and Klemperer et al brought to Schubert's great masterpiece!