BaL 27.12.14 - Schubert: Symphony no. 8 in B minor

[Barbirollians]

That 1978 VPO account better than CoE? Hard to believe!!

Yes I think so and until I heard it the COE was probably my favourite of all .

[pastoralguy]

Very interesting BaL this morning, I thought. I liked the comment that the idea of Schubert as being a sweet natured man was false!

Not sure I'm going to rush out to buy the 'winner' though.

[Barbirollians]

And the winner was ?

[DracoM]

Norrington / London Classical PLayers

I liked de Souza's measured, careful approach. Made me listen anew to the warhorse adn no matter who 'won'. it was a worthwhile lecturette.

[Bryn]

Very interesting BaL this morning, I thought. I liked the comment that the idea of Schubert as being a sweet natured man was false!

Not sure I'm going to rush out to buy the 'winner' though.

I won't be rushing out to buy it either, though I will fetch it from the shelves to give it a spin.

[MickyD]

I would have liked the Hanover Band's version to have been considered amongst the HIP recordings, but I suppose there is just not enough time for all.

[Petrushka]

I hope he didn't consign the Karajans and Klemperers to the rubbish bin.

In discussion of works of the Classical/Romantic era I think BaL should give recommendations for both traditional and HIPP as a standard. I have a worry (which others may share) that the traditional symphony orchestra recordings of certain works are gradually being consigned to history and that symphony orchestras will stop, or at least reduce, their playing of them on the grounds that it is 'wrong'.

I'm not altogether sure how a reviewer can meaningfully compare recordings by, say Klemperer and Norrington and adjudge one superior to the other. There has to be room for both.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm not altogether sure how a reviewer can meaningfully compare recordings by, say Klemperer and Norrington and adjudge one superior to the other. There has to be room for both.

Well , presumably the same way s/he would "meaningfully compare" different recordings by the same conductor, Pet - you get a copy of the score and judge which recording comes closest to realizing it (Can we hear the woodwinds? Is this tempo really "Andante con moto"? Are they using an edition of the score that erroneously prints the accents as diminuendo markings? Are the trombones in tune? etc etc) That way, you get a version which can be safely recommended for someone who doesn't have the work in their collection - meanwhile, the rest of us can sample which of the other versions we want to supplement our own collections with.

[waldo]

I hope he didn't consign the Karajans and Klemperers to the rubbish bin.

In discussion of works of the Classical/Romantic era I think BaL should give recommendations for both traditional and HIPP as a standard. I have a worry (which others may share) that the traditional symphony orchestra recordings of certain works are gradually being consigned to history and that symphony orchestras will stop, or at least reduce, their playing of them on the grounds that it is 'wrong'.

I'm not altogether sure how a reviewer can meaningfully compare recordings by, say Klemperer and Norrington and adjudge one superior to the other. There has to be room for both.

I couldn't agree more. Nothing spoils my lunch more than a fortepiano recommendation at the end of the programme. There should, at least, be some recognition that many listeners aren't going to build their libraries out of HIP recordings. (Or vice-versa: many HIPsters aren't going to want Karajan doing the Brandenburg concertos......) In any case, whatever the merits of this recognition, I can't really see the harm in a second recommendation. It would only take a few seconds.)

[vinteuil]

... the traditional symphony orchestra recordings of certain works are gradually being consigned to history ...

... I certainly hope so; it would seem the kindest thing to do.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I couldn't agree more. Nothing spoils my lunch more than a fortepiano recommendation at the end of the programme. There should, at least, be some recognition that many listeners aren't going to build their libraries out of HIP recordings. (Or vice-versa: many HIPsters aren't going to want Karajan doing the Brandenburg concertos......) In any case, whatever the merits of this recognition, I can't really see the harm in a second recommendation. It would only take a few seconds.)

But if a reviewer genuinely believes that none of the older recordings fully represent the genius represented in the score as well as do some more recent recordings, then this would be dishonest. Today there were two recommendations - both HIPP-based.

[waldo]

But if a reviewer genuinely believes that none of the older recordings fully represent the genius represented in the score as well as do some more recent recordings, then this would be dishonest. Today there were two recommendations - both HIPP-based.

I know what you mean, but I think it is a little too severe. The reviewer is simply being asked two questions: (1) Which is the best HIP performance? (2) Which is the best non HIP performance? You seem to be saying that it would be "dishonest" to even attempt to answer the two questions in the same programme, but I don't believe that is the case. I think, however, you could probably water your case down a little: instead of pushing for outright dishonesty, you could well argue that fragmenting the recommendations may, in some way, dilute or compromise the intellectual unity of the underlying critical vision. And I think that is possible, but it is subtle matter......

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But if a reviewer genuinely believes that none of the older recordings fully represent the genius represented in the score as well as do some more recent recordings, then this would be dishonest. Today there were two recommendations - both HIPP-based.

I wouldn't want a reviewer to be dishonest, but then I wouldn't choose one whose outlook shows a lack of breadth.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I couldn't agree more. Nothing spoils my lunch more than a fortepiano recommendation at the end of the programme. There should, at least, be some recognition that many listeners aren't going to build their libraries out of HIP recordings. (Or vice-versa: many HIPsters aren't going to want Karajan doing the Brandenburg concertos......) In any case, whatever the merits of this recognition, I can't really see the harm in a second recommendation. It would only take a few seconds.)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You seem to be saying that it would be "dishonest" to even attempt to answer the two questions in the same programme

I was thinking in terms of this morning's reviewer rather than as a general rule. I think if I were ever asked to do a BaL (Oh no! Not that dream again) I would tend to approach it the way you suggested - three recommendations: a Historical, "Traditional", and HIPP version (when I worked in a record shop - MANY years ago! - this is what I would do if asked for a recommendation and I didn't know the customer's preferences). But it was clear that today's reviewer didn't like any of the old-school performances, preferring those which more accurately reflect how research suggests the composer expected his Music to sound (which, incidentally, I don't think displays any absence of "breadth", Alpie). In such a cased, he would be being dishonest to suggest an enthusiasm where, in fact he felt none. (He did seem to teeter towards Abbado & the CoE before dismissing him.)

I'm no fan of Mr De Sousa, by the way - not since he presented a couple of Discovering Musics nearly twenty years ago in which he seemed to be suggesting that Brahms' 1st and Schumann's 2nd were both written by Barbara Cartland - but given the enormity of his task today, he made his case rather well and with fewer idiocies than is his wont.

FWIW - I would strongly urge anyone interested in this work to own at least one Furtwangler recording (in the absence of the final two movements, a conductor might feel it necessary to adopt the liberties with the second Movement that CdS so dismissed in order to make a more satisfactory concert item of the work; and WF's re-imagining of the proportions reveal valid insights of their own) and one "completion" of the work (to give a better idea of the proportions Schubert had in mind). I don't argue with the ultimate accolade going to Norrington (which is a fantastic bargain), but my own preference would be for Goodman & the Hanover Band. For "old school"/"traditional"; well, there my problem would be choosing: Klemperer (Philharmonia and VPO), Bohm, Karajan (with the Philharmonia), Sawallisch, Walter ... how on earth do you settle for just one?!