BaL 27.12.14 - Schubert: Symphony no. 8 in B minor

[Richard Tarleton]

I believe that there are certain composers whose Musical imaginations and intelligence(s) stretched far beyond what the rest of us could begin to conceive - that is why they are referred to as "great"; because time and again they wrote things that redefine what sound can do in time, works that stun the mind and stir the passions far more than other Musicians. I don't think that there is anything controversial in making such a statement.

Nor do I, with you all the way ferney, mystical nonsense indeed

I also believe that there are individual works of Music that also reveal insights into Music that surpass other works. The truest (most honest) way to lay bare these astonishing creations to an audience is to present them as closely as possible to how the composer has expressed their ideas in the score. ?"

But can I just ask an amateur's question which has doubtless been asked and answered many times before, but I'd just like to hear the answer again - is there a possibility that the genius compser's musical imagination, stretching beyond what the rest of us can begin to conceive, also encompassed sounds beyond what was possible with the instruments and technical proficiencies of the orchestras available to the composer at the time? I'm thinking ethereal 8's, Brendel's D960 or Op 111 2nd movement....you know what I'm getting at.....

[Bryn]

... - is there a possibility that the genius compser's musical imagination, stretching beyond what the rest of us can begin to conceive, also encompassed sounds beyond what was possible with the instruments and technical proficiencies of the orchestras available to the composer at the time? I'm thinking ethereal 8's, Brendel's D960 or Op 111 2nd movement....you know what I'm getting at.....

Or the tape interpolations of Varèse's Desserts. As audio technology advanced, he redid them twice. Boulez, of course, thought even the third and final set not worth bothering with, so just left them out. That said, while composers might stretch the instruments for which they write up to, and even somewhat beyond their limits, they can hardly write for technologies as yet unrealised, let alone unimagined.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes - I've said on the Brendel thread that I think that his Schubert recordings are very special to me. It's difficult for me to imagine an instrument sounding different from the various sounds I know it can make (with the exception of microtonal playing, which more recent instrument-makers have now created) but I'm not one of these geniuses!

I have doubts that even Schubert would ("would" not "could") have imagined precisely the sound of a Steinway grand piano developed a hundred years after his death. Which is not to say that he would have spurned such developments (nor that he wouldn't have included, say, Saxophones or electric guitars in his orchestral works) - but I think / believe / opine that, had he done so, he would have written different Music specifically for such instruments.

[Stanfordian]

Yes - I've said on the Brendel thread that I think that his Schubert recordings are very special to me. It's difficult for me to imagine an instrument sounding different from the various sounds I know it can make (with the exception of microtonal playing, which more recent instrument-makers have now created) but I'm not one of these geniuses!

I have doubts that even Schubert would ("would" not "could") have imagined precisely the sound of a Steinway grand piano developed a hundred years after his death. Which is not to say that he would have spurned such developments (nor that he wouldn't have included, say, Saxophones or electric guitars in his orchestral works) - but I think / believe / opine that, had he done so, he would have written different Music specifically for such instruments.

Hiya ferney, I agree with you. It's a mighty interesting subject for me. I like to hear many different types of performance styles. I recall an interview with pianist John Lill, concerning playing Bach on modern instruments, who said he didn't think Bach would have turned down a modern bathroom.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A member of the Skipton Brass Band was preparing for a National Brass Band competition, and noticed that one of the test pieces was Arthur Butterworth's Caliban, and as a friend of Arthur's, he 'phoned him to clarify some points about tempo which seemed a bit ambiguous. He was told to listen to the performance given by the Brighouse & Rastrick under the composer's supervision that was going to be broadcast later in the week. (This was a long time ago!)

The player listened very carefully, and made detailed notes of anything he thought might be useful. Skipton reached the final, and discovered that one of the judges was Mr Butterworth himself, so they all felt very smug.

They came last.

And were further astonished to read in the adjudicators' comments "FAR TOO SLOW!!!" in the composer's block capitals. A further 'phone call a couple of days later asking about his comments when they'd paid such close attention to the broadcast - "Oh, well, you see - after the first five performances, I changed my mind about how fast it should go."

Composers, eh?!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I recall an interview with pianist John Lill, concerning playing Bach on modern instruments, who said he didn't think Bach would have turned down a modern bathroom.

Hi, Stanf

I like the "modern bathroom" analogy - I have no doubt that Bach would have loved to have had use of a modern bathroom - but he would have had to alter/adapt some of the ablutionary habits of his time in order to get the most out of one.

[verismissimo]

Hiya ferney, I agree with you. It's a mighty interesting subject for me. I like to hear many different types of performance styles. I recall an interview with pianist John Lill, concerning playing Bach on modern instruments, who said he didn't think Bach would have turned down a modern bathroom.

The problem with this enticing analogy is that Bach could not possibly have imagined a modern bathroom (nor a Steinway).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I like the "modern bathroom" analogy - I have no doubt that Bach would have loved to have had use of a modern bathroom - but he would have had to alter/adapt some of the ablutionary habits of his time in order to get the most out of one.

A fair point, though other factors affecting the evolution of styles would surely have had a greater influence. Otherwise unaccompanied choral music would have changed little since the time of Patestrina.

The problem with this enticing analogy is that Bach could not possibly have imagined a modern bathroom (nor a Steinway).

I do think there's a difference between playing what is essentially the wrong instrument (e.g. a piano instead of a clavichord or harpsichord) and using modern versions of the specified instrument.

[Madame Suggia]

Krips for me coupled with the 9th, wonderful!!

[Barbirollians]

Krips for me coupled with the 9th, wonderful!!

On Australian Eloquence indeed - I know his excellent Ninth but not his recording of the Unfinished .

[Alison]

One might have thought that Sir Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra would be ideal exponents of the Unfinished Symphony.

Is anyone familiar with that Telarc version??

[Barbirollians]

One might have thought that Sir Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra would be ideal exponents of the Unfinished Symphony.

Is anyone familiar with that Telarc version??

Eight years on I don’t know that one Alison but I have always liked his HIPP OAE performance more than Norrington.

Struck down again by blasted COVID ( not fun to repeat ) I have listened to two today - the newish Blomstedt a very serious,sober reading but that does not move me and the Monteux which is outstanding . The Blomstedt recording of the Great Symphony,however, strikes me as very fine indeed . It does not seem a moment too long.

Now for the Savall.

[Barbirollians]

Savall - very grand and traditional in manner on his HIPP instruments - rather like it.

[richardfinegold]

Savall - very grand and traditional in manner on his HIPP instruments - rather like it.

It’s a great 2 disc set.

[MickyD]

Another cheer from me for the Hanover Band's recording, in which I think our Tony Halstead participated. I like it too because of the coupling of the incidental music to 'Rosamunde'.