BaL 13.12.14 - Bruckner: Symphony no. 7

[BBMmk2]

I saw on amazon, that the Lucerne Festival Orchestra/Abbada DVD is c/w Beethoven's PC No.5(Emperor)!! Me is getting this!! :)

[mathias broucek]

Surely, it can't be an inherent limitation in "disks" themselves, can it? The tempi won't actually be different, unless there's a serious problem with the CD player or its mains frequency! ...

I take it you refer to the "limitations" of recordings generally here i.e CDs, files, tapes, LPs etc... If a given conductor hates his or her recordings on playback (many do, or just ignore them as over and done with), isn't that because they are analytically naked to her ear, since she is no longer in the moment of performance, where everything felt instinctive? So she hears it as a mere listener hears it, with all the variations in response that this implies... some disquieting questions raised here.

With Celi then, you're left with the paradox of measuring, or at least comparing his (reluctantly!) recorded performances (which Radames, you suggest don't give a true account of the live experience, or at least yours and Celi's) with all the others; which might make choice and judgement a little problematic!

Nice summary, last time I saw/heard the Celi/MPO/Tokyo 7th it was exactly the LENGTH rather than the speed that was troubling.

I think Celi's point about the artificiality is the lack of acoustic "space". The point about being "in the moment" also matters. There are some concerts which I attended and thought were astonishing at the time but now find the BBC Legends or LPO Label CD to be perfectly enjoyable but not at the exalted level I experienced at the time - disquieting indeed....

[MickyD]

Herreweghe has also recorded symphonies 4 and 5, plus the Mass no.3, all for Harmonia Mundi.

[waldo]

Herreweghe has also recorded symphonies 4 and 5, plus the Mass no.3, all for Harmonia Mundi.

He has done two of the masses now.....

Surprising there isn't a bit more interest in him, given there are so few period recordings of this music. Bruckner's orchestra was not the same as ours. Violins etc didn't start using metal strings until much later; they used gut in Bruckner's day. So even if you ignore the different woodwind and brass instruments - and they were quite different, too - you are still going to get a very different orchestral sound, just from the strings. Certainly, that great big wash of massed, vibrato-laden, string sound you get in most Bruckner performances would have been quite unfamiliar to him. But for some reason, interest in period performances seems to dwindle once you get into the mid eighteen hundreds........not only among audiences, but also among performers. It is as if we have a rough or instinctive conception of modernity in our minds and once we feel we have reached this point, or at least got close to it, we think: well, just how different can the orchestra really have been in 1890? Go back a bit further in time, however, and we fall into an abyss where just about anything seems possible.

For me, it is Wagner, rather than Bruckner, who really suffers from this since we owe the whole evolution of the "Wagnerian" singer to the simple fact that modern orchestras are far, far louder than the ones Wagner knew. Singing over the top of the Bayreuth orchestra in, say, 1880 would have been many times easier than it is today. Singers would actually have been able to sing, rather scream or bellow as most seem to do.

[Bryn]

He has done two of the masses now.....

Surprising there isn't a bit more interest in him, given there are so few period recordings of this music. Bruckner's orchestra was not the same as ours. Violins etc didn't start using metal strings until much later; they used gut in Bruckner's day. So even if you ignore the different woodwind and brass instruments - and they were quite different, too - you are still going to get a very different orchestral sound, just from the strings. Certainly, that great big wash of massed, vibrato-laden, string sound you get in most Bruckner performances would have been quite unfamiliar to him. But for some reason, interest in period performances seems to dwindle once you get into the mid eighteen hundreds........not only among audiences, but also among performers. It is as if we have a rough or instinctive conception of modernity in our minds and once we feel we have reached this point, or at least got close to it, we think: well, just how different can the orchestra really have been in 1890? Go back a bit further in time, however, and we fall into an abyss where just about anything seems possible.

For me, it is Wagner, rather than Bruckner, who really suffers from this since we owe the whole evolution of the "Wagnerian" singer to the simple fact that modern orchestras are far, far louder than the ones Wagner knew. Singing over the top of the Bayreuth orchestra in, say, 1880 would have been many times easier than it is today. Singers would actually have been able to sing, rather scream or bellow as most seem to do.

You are Roger Norrington, and I claim my £5.

[vinteuil]

For me, it is Wagner, rather than Bruckner, who really suffers from this since we owe the whole evolution of the "Wagnerian" singer to the simple fact that modern orchestras are far, far louder than the ones Wagner knew. Singing over the top of the Bayreuth orchestra in, say, 1880 would have been many times easier than it is today. Singers would actually have been able to sing, rather scream or bellow as most seem to do.

Yes indeed. I am longing for some Historically Informed Performances of Wagner. There was an interesting Rheingold at the Proms a few years back, but precious little else around.

Still, it's only relatively recently that we have had a good range of period performance Chopin - and still not enough Brahms and Schumann piano works...


But I am wandering far off topic.

I very much like the various Herreweghe Bruckners.

[verismissimo]

... For me, it is Wagner, rather than Bruckner, who really suffers from this since we owe the whole evolution of the "Wagnerian" singer to the simple fact that modern orchestras are far, far louder than the ones Wagner knew. Singing over the top of the Bayreuth orchestra in, say, 1880 would have been many times easier than it is today. Singers would actually have been able to sing, rather scream or bellow as most seem to do.

Yes, yes, yes. Verdi too. For me the Falstaff at Glyndebourne last year with the OAE under Mark Elder, that was the revelation. For once the singers didn't have to force, even with the orchestra going full blast.

[Petrushka]

BPO, Herbert von Karajan (1981 live)

Can you, or anyone else, shed some light on this one please? Unknown to me and can't trace it in the usual places.

[Pabmusic]

Here's Horenstein's 1928 recording with the Berlin Phil:

http://musicparlourhistorical.blogspot.com

The files are downloadable as Flac files.

[Beef Oven!]

I doubt that my preferred versions will figure highly on Saturday morning:

Bohm - VPO 1943

Karajan - VPO 1989

Celibidache - MPO 1994

[MickyD]

Yes indeed. I am longing for some Historically Informed Performances of Wagner. There was an interesting Rheingold at the Proms a few years back, but precious little else around.

Still, it's only relatively recently that we have had a good range of period performance Chopin - and still not enough Brahms and Schumann piano works...


But I am wandering far off topic.

I very much like the various Herreweghe Bruckners.

Did you ever get hold of these two HIP discs, Vints? They are worth having:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Overtures-Preludes-New-Queens-Hall/dp/B000025YAA/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1418368543&sr=1-3&keywords=new+queen%27s+hall+orchestra

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Can you, or anyone else, shed some light on this one please? Unknown to me and can't trace it in the usual places.

Having done a quick check, I haven't found it either. Probably an error on my part.

[gurnemanz]

I have three CDs:

Tintner/Scottish - lovely version with beautiful velvety sound (surprised no one has mentioned)
Karajan/BPO (big box)
Klemperer Live 1958/Vienna Symphony (Nikolaus Harnoncourt was on cello duty for them during this period). Exhilarating record of a good night at the Musikverein in excellently detailed mono sound. A great listen.

[Pabmusic]

I have three CDs:

Tintner/Scottish - lovely version with beautiful velvety sound (surprised no one has mentioned)
Karajan/BPO (big box)
Klemperer Live 1958/Vienna Symphony (Nikolaus Harnoncourt was on cello duty for them during this period). Exhilarating record of a good night at the Musikverein in excellently detailed mono sound. A great listen.

I have all the Tintners, and even though I can't yet come to grips with Bruckner, I like the 7th and think that Tintner is superb. In fact, you have inspired me to play it.

[waldo]

Yes indeed. I am longing for some Historically Informed Performances of Wagner. There was an interesting Rheingold at the Proms a few years back, but precious little else around.

That Rheingold (OAE/Rattle) is available in pretty good quality in youtube. How lovely to hear the rheinmaidens singing sweetly for once........I really hoped they would go on and do the whole Ring, but for some reason it didn't happen. Apart from that, Thomas Hengelbrock did a period Parsifal in 2013. I have only just found it - I haven't listened yet - but it is here on youtube. it got sensational reviews. Will listen later. Finally, there is also a period Dutchman (Bruno Weil) on CD floating about.
But even if we do get to the point where period orchestras begin to move into the sacred Wagnerian precincts, it will surely take some time for performers - especially singers - to develop a suitable way of doing things. If you simply plant an established Wagnerian heldentenor in front of a period orchestra, you are almost certainly going to get traditional Wagnerian singing.........