BaL 6.12.14 - Bach: 4 Orchestral Suites (BWV 1066-69)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The "5th" Suite in G minor.
Presumably by W.F. Bach, but does anyone here know the work?

[Bryn]

I have the MAK recording of BWV[sic] 1070. Pretty clear the the ear that it's not the work of JSB.

[Roehre]

The "5th" Suite in G minor.
Presumably by W.F. Bach, but does anyone here know the work?

BWV 1070 is also an orchestral suite, not belonging to the "set" of 4.
It has been published as JSB's work on reasonable but likely to be incorrect assumptions and hence included in the BWV.
It's also included in BWV's Anh.II, confirming its doubtful authenticity (NOT in Anh.III, works proven not to be by JSB).
The doubts are mainly fed by the provenance and less so on stylistic grounds, as we must assume that more than approx 70% of Bach's orchestral work has gone lost, including accompanying works of (and like) 1070.

There is a couple of recordings available, including one in a Brilliant set of "Music by Bach Sons" (Brilliant 99785)

[Gordon]

Looking through my catalogue I see I have

Marriner 1970 [recorded Kingsway December 7-10th!, the second version of 1978 is also Kingsway but the 1984 is Abbey Road - just if you're interested!],
Leppard/ECO [Wembley 1968] but not listed at the top of this thread,
Goodman/Brandenberg,
Busch [only 2 of the 4],
and Klemperer [Testament, also Kingsway, 1954].

I used to have the Leppard on the Philips Bach family 5 LP set that also had some interesting stuff from others in the family - eg a rather good jaunty Suite from cousin Johann Ludwig. I wonder if that is the Brilliant set that someone mentioned above? - It's NOT!!

I do like the Marriner and ECO/Leppard and the only HIP set is the Goodman and that not totally so. Look forward to this one to see if it would be worth getting a newer version. The Klemperer is remarkably good considering....

......I only know this because I have a book "Marriner and the Academy, a record partnership" by Philip Stuart.

That'll be the excellent ASMF discography by Philip who has done a number of very good discographies for other bands like LPO, LSO and ECO and he has compiled one for the Decca label [if you google Philip Stuart you'll get some links]. Meticulous research and very reliable. He was a great help when I was researching Kingsway Hall many moons ago.

[Roehre]

....

I used to have the Leppard on the Philips Bach family 5 LP set that also had some interesting stuff from others in the family - eg a rather good jaunty Suite from cousin Johann Ludwig. I wonder if that is the Brilliant set that someone mentioned above? - It's NOT!!....

The Philips 5 LP-set (ECO/Leppard) hasn't got anything to do with the Brilliant 6CD (Hungaroton licensed) set but for the title

[Bryn]

It's interesting to read the evolution of opinion regarding the provenance of BWV 1066-69 through the programme notes for the Café Zimmermann series. When discussing BWV 1066, the then "most recent" research by Wolff is cited to support their Leipzig origins. However, as the later discs appeared, their earlier Köthen source was given more credence. Indeed, BWV 1068 and 1069 appear to have had their trumpet and drums parts added during the Leipzig years by CPE and JS respectively. I am also won over by the Ruiz argument that BWV 1067 is a later transcription and re-instrumentation of a work in A minor with oboe, rather than flute, as the prominent solo part. I do hope the Ensemble Sonnerie/Monica Huggett CD of BWV 1066 plus reconstructions of the Köthen 'original' versions of the other three gets a look-in.

[LeMartinPecheur]

I used to have the Leppard on the Philips Bach family 5 LP set that also had some interesting stuff from others in the family - eg a rather good jaunty Suite from cousin Johann Ludwig.

I may previously have mentioned acquiring a beautifully clean copy of this set s/h not so long ago, still with Philips printed sticker "5 LPs, £11.5s.0d (this price crossed out), £6.0s.3d Recommended Subscription Price".

Bet that extra thruppence made all the difference in those days

Thanks for the reminder that it includes the JSB suites - I'd forgotten I had these to put alongside Menuhin and Pinnock. (OK, OK, I know I need Cafe Zimmerman...)

[Beef Oven!]

I have complete sets by English Concert, Trevor Pinnock and Collegium Japan, Masaaki Suzuki.

I also have selections by:

Karajan - BPO
Reinhard Goebel - Musica Antiqua Köln
Giovanni Antonini - Il Giardino Armonica

Although I will listen to this Bal with a lot of interest, I don't expect to be adding to my collection.

[makropulos]

Another vote for Cafe Zimmermann from me - though I think they can only be had as part of the six-disc series (or the box that gathers all those together) so it's an expensive way of doing it.

La Petite Bande is another favourite, and I've just had Richard Egarr's new AAM set which I'm enjoying a great deal at the moment.

[Bryn]

Another vote for Cafe Zimmermann from me - though I think they can only be had as part of the six-disc series (or the box that gathers all those together) so it's an expensive way of doing it.

Not quite so expensive when one considers what other delights are to be found in the headless wonders box, eh?



Out of stock at amazon.co.uk itself, but available "New" from their marketplace for around £29 including p&p.

[makropulos]

Not quite so expensive when one considers what other delights are to be found in the headless wonders box, eh?



Out of stock at amazon.co.uk itself, but available "New" from their marketplace for around £29 including p&p.

Couldn't agree more. They are wonderful discs.

[gurnemanz]

Another vote for Cafe Zimmermann from me - though I think they can only be had as part of the six-disc series (or the box that gathers all those together) so it's an expensive way of doing it.

The four Suites are actually on different discs. You get the same discs whether as sold separately or in the box, which is well worth getting at mid-price (quite a bit cheaper than buying them individually).

[MickyD]

BWV 1070 is also an orchestral suite, not belonging to the "set" of 4.
It has been published as JSB's work on reasonable but likely to be incorrect assumptions and hence included in the BWV.
It's also included in BWV's Anh.II, confirming its doubtful authenticity (NOT in Anh.III, works proven not to be by JSB).
The doubts are mainly fed by the provenance and less so on stylistic grounds, as we must assume that more than approx 70% of Bach's orchestral work has gone lost, including accompanying works of (and like) 1070.

There is a couple of recordings available, including one in a Brilliant set of "Music by Bach Sons" (Brilliant 99785)

If that is true, how very sad...

[verismissimo]

... I used to have the Leppard on the Philips Bach family 5 LP set that also had some interesting stuff from others in the family...

Thanks for the reminder, Gordon. I too have that set and I've been comparing the Harnoncourt recordings with it, much to the advantage of Leppard. Devoted as I am to HIPP interpretaions, the Harnoncourts sound to my ears both sour and uninteresting, whereas to Leppards are full of life and musicality.

It had me thinking of the positive remarks in last week's BAL made by Richard Wigmore concerning the recently emerged school of conductors using traditional instruments (can that be the right descriptor?) , but deploying learnings and approaches from the HIPP movement - Ticciati, Zinman, Nezet, Mackerras etc.

Of course, disregarded by current HIPP exponents, Leppard was doing just that in the 1960s!

[MickyD]

To be fair to Harnoncourt, his recordings of the suites date from the mid-60s, when period instrument playing was in its infancy. I'm sure the Concentus Musicus Wien would do them very differently now.