BaL 29.11.14 - Schumann: Symphony no. 2

[Roehre]

At the risk of being thought of as a stick in the mud, I've just listened to Otto Klemperer's recording with the Philharmonia, (EMI) and I have to say, it is actually rather good.

Though my preferred reading is JEG's (with Kubelik/BPO and Sawallish next), this Klemperer is a good old fashioned performance and I mean that positively (his rhenish is IMO in the same category)

[jayne lee wilson]

Curiosity killed the budget...

...It's never a good sign to find yourself looking at your equipment, thinking, did I leave something on the wrong setting...?
Or, pushing the volume ever harder to squeeze some life outta the damn thing...

Just as well Nezet-Seguin's Schumann 2nd is over quickly, give that it's indifferently played and not especially well-recorded...
This is hi-res? Even on my most open settings (in JRiver) it didn't impress with detail, ambience, tonal lustre or dynamics. It's a bit dull and recessed, sounded like an average-minus CD. And Nezet-Seguin's interpretative manoeuvres (what there are of them) are too obvious - cliche-HIPPS in their speed, brusqueness and lack of character or individuality. It isn't terrible, but it's streets behind Linn and Ticciati for musical interest or SQ. If I'd heard it on TTN, unaware of the performers, I'd have said, okay-ish, no better than I'd expect from...well, whoever.

So, on the evidence of No.2 at least, looks like Simeone and Andrew Clements were right, and the rest of the world were wrong.
First impressions? Too hasty? I'm not looking forward to No.3 much, or hearing 2 again..

(Late returns..transferred it to Audirvana+, took it through to the scherzo (oh, with the super-metrical N-S you really do get there in NO time...). A little fuller, warmer and...nicer, but not much advance.)

[BBMmk2]

Curiosity killed the budget...

...It's never a good sign to find yourself looking at your equipment, thinking, did I leave something on the wrong setting...?
Or, pushing the volume ever harder to squeeze some life outta the damn thing...

Just as well Nezet-Seguin's Schumann 2nd is over quickly (no exposition repeat), give that it's indifferently played and not especially well-recorded...
This is hi-res? Even on my most open settings (in JRiver) it didn't impress with detail, ambience, tonal lustre or dynamics. It's a bit dull and recessed, sounded like an average-minus CD. And Nezet-Seguin's interpretative manoeuvres (what there are of them) are too obvious - cliche-HIPPS in their speed, brusqueness and lack of character or individuality. It isn't terrible, but it's streets behind Linn and Ticciati for musical interest or SQ. If I'd heard it on TTN, unaware of the performers, I'd have said, okay-ish, no better than I'd expect from...well, whoever.

So, on the evidence of No.2 at least, looks like Simeone and Andrew Clements were right, and the rest of the world were wrong.
First impressions? Too hasty? I'm not looking forward to No.3 much, or hearing 2 again..

(Late returns..transferred it to Audirvana+, took it through to the scherzo (oh, with the super-metrical N-S you really do get there in NO time...). A little fuller, warmer and...nicer, but not much advance.)

Do you have that Jegger's cycle, JLW?

[BBMmk2]

Curiosity killed the budget...

...It's never a good sign to find yourself looking at your equipment, thinking, did I leave something on the wrong setting...?
Or, pushing the volume ever harder to squeeze some life outta the damn thing...

Just as well Nezet-Seguin's Schumann 2nd is over quickly (no exposition repeat), give that it's indifferently played and not especially well-recorded...
This is hi-res? Even on my most open settings (in JRiver) it didn't impress with detail, ambience, tonal lustre or dynamics. It's a bit dull and recessed, sounded like an average-minus CD. And Nezet-Seguin's interpretative manoeuvres (what there are of them) are too obvious - cliche-HIPPS in their speed, brusqueness and lack of character or individuality. It isn't terrible, but it's streets behind Linn and Ticciati for musical interest or SQ. If I'd heard it on TTN, unaware of the performers, I'd have said, okay-ish, no better than I'd expect from...well, whoever.

So, on the evidence of No.2 at least, looks like Simeone and Andrew Clements were right, and the rest of the world were wrong.
First impressions? Too hasty? I'm not looking forward to No.3 much, or hearing 2 again..

(Late returns..transferred it to Audirvana+, took it through to the scherzo (oh, with the super-metrical N-S you really do get there in NO time...). A little fuller, warmer and...nicer, but not much advance.)

Do you have the JEGGER's cycle. by chance, JLW

[cloughie]

Having said that, I admit to finding the 1851 4th almost beyond the pale of familiarity these days; I should put it away till the next life, really.

Maybe I've missed something but personally, I would happily never hear the 1841 version again - I would not want to be without the Furtwangler 1851!

[Barbirollians]

I was prompted by this thread to dig out the Sawallisch which I have not listened to for quite a while. It really is a triumph - such burnished playing and such well chosen tempi and immensely musical throughout .

[Alison]

Many thanks Jayne, you have certainly solved my Nezet/Ticciati dilemma.

Thinking about it the Scottish Chamber Orchestra has become one of my favourite bands.

[verismissimo]

... Thinking about it the Scottish Chamber Orchestra has become one of my favourite bands.

Mine too. Mackerras was absolutely devoted to them.

[Nick Armstrong]

I was prompted by this thread to dig out the Sawallisch which I have not listened to for quite a while. It really is a triumph - such burnished playing and such well chosen tempi and immensely musical throughout .

Many thanks Jayne, you have certainly solved my Nezet/Ticciati dilemma.

Mine too - having disliked what I've caught of the Nézet on the radio. I am almost irresistibly tempted to get the Ticciati...

[HighlandDougie]

36 hours after starting to download the Ticciati, it's finally complete (an unstable and slow broadband service and 24/192 files are not a happy combination). Was it worth it? Mostly, yes. The recording has all the clarity and warmth one could wish in quieter passages - but, to my ears at least, is recognisably Perth Concert Hall in that climaxes tend to become just a bit congested as is often the case in live orchestral concerts. I'm not sure why but the performances reminded me of Kubelik in Berlin, albeit with a smaller orchestra. Most enjoyable, if not quite up to Saint Claudio in the second - and I really like Ticciati's fourth. Much better than the disappointing and rather febrile Y N-S (nor, as Jayne has pointed out, is the Cité de la Musique a good recording venue) and the equally disappointing Rattle, where even the clarity and presence of the Blu-ray version failed to hold my attention, especially in the second and third symphonies. As a last word on Ticciati, I can't resist quoting the Les Patterson, "Cultural Attaché" clone, who puts various entertaining if at times bizarre reviews on Amazon, "So where does this start with this low salt, low fat, emasculated, cold-bottomed cutesy diet-stinker of a cycle?".

[jayne lee wilson]

This thread is about the 2nd, but most 2nds are bundled with the other three, so...

AS it turns out, Yannick Zed-Ess is far more engaging in the Rhenish and the COE sound happier too, and friendlier to each other: more give-and-take dialoguing here. Lyrical, flowing and buoyant through (i) (no china-shop rush), with many individual expressive touches like the serene, quietist episode just before the climax in (ii), then a gentle, songful start to the finale - before the hats are really thrown into the air at its wildly ecstatic conclusion! They sound like they're enjoying themselves.
No.4 comes off well too, but there's still a generalised feel interpretatively, with unsubtle and often flattened dynamics. Some good moments though: warmly expressive trio (but at the heart of a tame scherzo!), and a splendid intro to a genuinely thrilling finale. Here the string articulation is much sharper and shapelier than in the 2nd, and, unusually, we get the finale repeat (for which relief etc...).

With 3 & 4, I can see why the set attracted praise. But the engineering should win no awards and I remain puzzled why Pruslin (IRR) and Threasher (G) rated it quite so highly. As a live cycle heard via R3 or streaming service you'd enjoy much of it, but not dwell upon it for long afterwards. If the COE and Nezet-Seguin had toured with the Schumann cycle, then taken it into a good acoustic setting for a studio taping? Ah, if! It could have been special... I guess it was just too tempting for DG to put it out there as-is and hope for a good response.

I see I fell into the trap of using the term "mannered"... what is this "mannerism" anyway? It's often used of Harnoncourt, but all it seems to mean is "unusual phrasing which I dislike"...
Throughout the Ticciati and Nezet-Seguin cycles it was precisely when the music was taken in unexpected directions that I felt most engaged. Isn't that because the performers are more involved too, when they feel compelled to shape the phrase or paragraph anew?
I enjoyed Simeone's comment "Ticciati indulges a few mannerisms too (as an old-codgerish aside, do young conductors think this is a prerequisite for getting their performances noticed?)" but with Schumann above all composers, impulsiveness and spontaneity, wilfulness and risk, are surely truest to his creator spiritus. And they can't be the same every time, can they?

But then I'm not an old codger (and I don't think the Nige-Meister is either, really...)

[amateur51]

This thread is about the 2nd, but most 2nds are bundled with the other three, so...

AS it turns out, Yannick Zed-Ess is far more engaging in the Rhenish and the COE sound happier too, and friendlier to each other: more give-and-take dialoguing here. Lyrical, flowing and buoyant through (i) (no china-shop rush), with many individual expressive touches like the serene, quietist episode just before the climax in (ii), then a gentle, songful start to the finale - before the hats are really thrown into the air at its wildly ecstatic conclusion! They sound like they're enjoying themselves.
No.4 comes off well too, but there's still a generalised feel interpretatively, with unsubtle and often flattened dynamics. Some good moments though: warmly expressive trio (but at the heart of a tame scherzo!), and a splendid intro to a genuinely thrilling finale. Here the string articulation is much sharper and shapelier than in the 2nd, and, unusually, we get the finale repeat (for which relief etc...).

With 3 & 4, I can see why the set attracted praise. But the engineering should win no awards and I remain puzzled why Pruslin (IRR) and Threasher (G) rated it quite so highly. As a live cycle heard via R3 or streaming service you'd enjoy much of it, but not dwell upon it for long afterwards. If the COE and Nezet-Seguin had toured with the Schumann cycle, then taken it into a good acoustic setting for a studio taping? Ah, if! It could have been special... I guess it was just too tempting for DG to put it out there as-is and hope for a good response.

I see I fell into the trap of using the term "mannered"... what is this "mannerism" anyway? It's often used of Harnoncourt, but all it seems to mean is "unusual phrasing which I dislike"...
Throughout the Ticciati and Nezet-Seguin cycles it was precisely when the music was taken in unexpected directions that I felt most engaged. Isn't that because the performers are more involved too, when they feel compelled to shape the phrase or paragraph anew?
I enjoyed Simeone's comment "Ticciati indulges a few mannerisms too (as an old-codgerish aside, do young conductors think this is a prerequisite for getting their performances noticed?)" but with Schumann above all composers, impulsiveness and spontaneity, wilfulness and risk, are surely truest to his creator spiritus. And they can't be the same every time, can they?

But then I'm not an old codger (and I don't think the Nige-Meister is either, really...)

Very interesting observationsa jlw, and belated 'welcome back's from me

It struck me that we don't know what YNS's track record is concerning performances of these symphonies with this orchestra. I confess to being rather surprised to see a cycle had been recorded by them. Too much too soon? This rush to record does have its drawbacks, it seems to me.

The snippets that I have heard of Ticciati's cycle have led to my putting them on my list

[silvestrione]

I see I fell into the trap of using the term "mannered"... what is this "mannerism" anyway? It's often used of Harnoncourt, but all it seems to mean is "unusual phrasing which I dislike"...

I think 'mannered' is a very useful term in criticism, meaning phrasing imposed from the outside, as it were, and so drawing too much attention to itself, rather than phrasing that emerges naturally from the music, or from the performers' deep, insightful involvement in it.

[amateur51]

I think 'mannered' is a very useful term in criticism, meaning phrasing imposed from the outside, as it were, and so drawing too much attention to itself, rather than phrasing that emerges naturally from the music, or from the performers' deep, insightful involvement in it.

How do you feel about 'idiomatic/unidiomatic'?

[verismissimo]

How do you feel about 'idiomatic/unidiomatic'?

For me, the insistence on performance being 'idiomatic' leads inexorably to the position where the only way to play Czech music is exactly the way Czechs do it, English/English, French/French, American/American etc. It becomes an unhelpful straitjacket.