BaL 29.11.14 - Schumann: Symphony no. 2

[Nick Armstrong]

Sorry Cali!! (Have a virtual Spitfire!)

Don't mind if I do !

Seriously though, Bbm - get a grip and try the symphonies! Maybe you need a leaner approach like Nézet-Séguin/COE or Holliger/WDR SO rather than the more plush, 'traditional' performance style which may have put you off?

The two versions of No 2 I have on CD are part of the complete sets by Szell/Cleveland and Sawallisch/Dresden (the latter in both the original CD issue and the refined Japanese pressing advocated so passionately by JLW). As mentioned before and often, I am an unrepentant fan of the Sawallisch performances and recordings, plus the playing of one of my favourite orchestras. They are among that select handful of performances of any music that seem to me so "right".

I've never warmed to the more fleet, chamber-style Schumann (even though we are told it is more authentic, having regard to the forces for which he was writing etc etc). But latterly, I've been listening a lot to a more 'modern' approach to the 2nd Symphony, having recorded one day (from Essential Classics or TTN, can't remember which) the Holliger / WDR performance - and I like it a lot.

At the risk of spoiling this BAL, it will be interesting to see if Mr Wigmore remains consistent with his own view, expressed on classical-music.com (the online offshoot of BBCMM), and echoing mine, that:

"Sawallisch’s searching, far-seeing 1972 recording, gloriously executed by the Dresden Staatskapelle, still leads the field, despite memorable recent offerings from the likes of Gardiner, Sinopoli and Thielemann. Richard Wigmore"



Or have Nézet-Séguin or other newcomers turned his head... ?

[seabright]

Bernstein's NYPO set of all four Schumann symphonies stated "Original Orchestration" on the cover. On the other hand, Naxos's set with the Bergen Philharmonic under Aldo Ceccato has "Orchestrated by Gustav Mahler" in big letters on its front cover. Szell is on record as saying that Schumann's "inability to establish proper balances" meant that "this can and must be helped by all means known to any professional conductor who professes to be a cultured and style-conscious musician." He added that such a conductor's re-touchings "must be applied with much soul-searching and discrimination." Szell did indeed make his own changes to the scoring (should these be re-designated "tamperings"?) though whether they were similar to Mahler's I don't know. Anyway, it will be interesting to hear if BAL touches on the question of the re-orchestration of Schumann's symphonies.

[MickyD]

Roy Goodman and the Hanover Band also recorded the symphonies for RCA.

[Karafan]

Konwitschny and his Leipzigers are surprisingly fleet of foot and responsive. A good "sleeper" set.

K.

[Petrushka]

Surely - surely - Elgar's imagination was caught by the third movement of the Schumann 2nd when writing the Enigma Variations? The fact that Schumann is quoted again (the Piano Concerto) in Variation 13 settles it for me.

[visualnickmos]

Surely - surely - Elgar's imagination was caught by the third movement of the Schumann 2nd when writing the Enigma Variations? The fact that Schumann is quoted again (the Piano Concerto) in Variation 13 settles it for me.

We are an hour ahead here, but it' made me want to listen to 'Enigma' again! By Jove - you may have cracked it....

[teamsaint]

That is actually a very interesting point. Perhaps an impossible one to 'square' with... I don't know. It seems that the notion could raise many unknowns, and speculative concepts as to exactly how an interpretation is executed.

Sinopoli is a conductor that I am not really very familiar with regarding recorded work, although I did see him conducted Mahler's second, at the RFH in about '81, '82. I would like to hear a sample of his Schumann.

PS I attended three organ recitals in Béziers cathedral during the summer. Excellent, they were. The sound and power of this particular organ is sheer beauty in sound. Looking forward to next summer's series.

Hmmm.. Just listened to the VPO/Sinopoli recording, ( the adagio) and .....its like listening to Mahler.
Amazing.

[EdgeleyRob]

Surely - surely - Elgar's imagination was caught by the third movement of the Schumann 2nd when writing the Enigma Variations? The fact that Schumann is quoted again (the Piano Concerto) in Variation 13 settles it for me.

Funny you should say that Pet.
I listened to the VPO/Sinopoli Schumann 2 earlier today.
I always think the slow movement sounds Elgarian,especially in this performance,whch I gather is considered quite a controversial one by the experts.

[EdgeleyRob]

Hmmm.. Just listened to the VPO/Sinopoli recording, ( the adagio) and .....its like listening to Mahler.
Amazing.

Yes maybe Mahler too.
No wonder this version divides opinion.
I bet it doesn't win.

[teamsaint]

Yes maybe Mahler too.
No wonder this version divides opinion.
I bet it doesn't win.

I thought the whole performance was , as promised,very exciting.
I'm sure you are right about Elgar , hadn't occurred to me, will try to listen again with that thought.



I may have to put that box on my wishlist......

[jayne lee wilson]

My eyes lit up as "192k" appeared in the DAC display, as Ticciati's Schumann 2nd began...so, did it sound 4 times as good as CD?


Not sure about that... (HIResAudio said of 96k "it won't even sound twice as good...")....but beauty is truth, truth beauty, and what I can say is that Philip Hobbs' Perth Concert Hall recording is one of the most natural, transparent and beautiful realisations of a symphony orchestra I've ever "watched" materialise between, around and behind my speakers. It's certainly the finest ever recording of the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, even finer than Mackerras' late Mozart (slumming it at 88.2k). I love the way the balance never draws attention to itself, but tightens into a brilliant cutting edge, a sharp attack and impact into climaxes and sforzandi. But the soundstaging is as grand a vision as you'll ever apprehend, seeming almost too wide and deep for the room itself.

One hearing of this wonderful cycle could never be enough to appreciate the idiosyncratic verve of Ticciati's readings, his daringly bar-by-bar shaping of phrase into paragraph, where no two climaxes or sforzandi are ever quite the same, always shaped to depict the mood more subtly and vividly. His approach varies according to the piece: very direct and unmannered in 1 and 4 (1851, with all those exhausting repetitions), but far more moulded and Romantic in 2 and 3, where he's quite happy to bring the music almost to a standstill if the mood takes him, resting sensuously in pools of lyrical calm. So the first half of No.2's opening movement seems almost circumspect, but tightens and brightens to achieve a brilliant impact at the close. Then in the finale there are startling ritardandos in the last climaxes before the coda. At times, reminded of Venzago's Bruckner in the way the tempi modified with each mood and section, I thought, "can he really get away with this?", but it only served to sharpen my listening, draw in my attention.

Simeone in the IRR preferred Ticciati for his directness in 1 & 4, whereas I incline to favour his sheer originality, his risk-taking idiosyncrasies in the two greatest symphonies, 2 & 3. Having said that, I admit to finding the 1851 4th almost beyond the pale of familiarity these days; I should put it away till the next life, really. But the Spring Symphony is SO bright, sharp, green and bushy it seemed even more unseasonal than ever listening to it under a wet November dawn.
(WHAT a recording that is - "high-resolution digital in the extreme" I thought, though taming it a little in a warmer setting (Audirvana+ Integer 2) I felt I lost as much as I gained...)

Performances like these probably won't fare well under the Record Review Rules of Runners and Riders. I love them musically and technically, and because they give the lie even more firmly to any idea of a "library version" having relevance in the state of Classical Performance or Recording today.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Brilliant, perceptive writing JLW.

[seabright]

Hmmm.. Just listened to the VPO/Sinopoli recording, ( the adagio) and .....its like listening to Mahler.
Amazing.

I'm just listening to the Sinopoli / VPO too, as it is on You Tube in its entirety ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF8Lap9wIkQ

So too on You Tube are complete performances of the work, either 'live' off the telly, or from radio broadcasts, or from commercial releases on CD, by Bernstein, Harding, Jarvi, Gardiner, Zinman, Szell, Bychkov, von Dohnanyi, Celibidache, Rattle, and Klemperer (at 43 minutes!). Plenty there to keep You Tubers going.

The mention above of Sinopoli, Mahler and Elgar in connection with the Schumann 2 'Adagio' puts me in mind of Bernstein's Mahlerian "Nimrod" in the 'Enigma Variations.' Sinopoli seems to have the same idea, so slow, though beautifully played.

[jayne lee wilson]

Just played the Ticciati Spring again... maybe it helped that it's a bright November dawn rather than a dark one, but...wow. WOW. God how wonderful is that. Truly I am blessed.
(Sleep, what's that? Oh, you mean sleep...)

[HighlandDougie]

God how wonderful is that. Truly I am blessed.

I need another set of the Schumann symphonies like a proverbial hole in the head but Jayne's advocacy of Ticciati is so strong that I'm about to press the "Buy" button on the Linn website. The recordings were made in my local hall in Scotland (which I know well) so I'll be interested to hear how it sounds. My Chord Hugo DAC doesn't seem to have any problems with 192k so I'll just have to be patient as it'll take several hours to download, given the woeful broadband speed here in France.

Ticciati's Second Symphony will, though, have to be really wonderful to displace the Abbado as my favourite recording of this, my favourite among the four symphonies. Abbado's performance sounds, well, absolutely right. Even finer than my erstwhile favourites, Sinopoli and JEG. And the overtures on the CD are just as good.