BaL 15.11.14 - Rossini: William Tell

[aeolium]

And, aeolium and jean, I just think this is a Forum for all views about music and most manners of expressing them, analytical, trenchant, sardonic etc. The diversity of views I think adds vigour, interest and humour. A "Rossini Appreciation Forum" would be a different sort of place - and yes, I can see it would arguably be perverse to join that Forum to opine that Rossini's operas were dull....

But does it add anything to a thread about a Rossini opera (and as Jean mentioned, one that is not well known or frequently performed) and a programme devoted to interpretations of it to say that you find the music dull, that you would rather discuss Bruckner or Dvorak symphonies because you find it dull, while others post clips of joke performances of the "Lone Ranger" (probably the only part of the opera they know)? Look at this thread - how many people have meaningfully commented on the work or the programme? Doesn't it, as jean suggested, tend to prejudice people against the work and the programme if even before it is broadcast most of the comments about it are negative (and comments made, I suggest, by people who have never heard the work right through)?

[Nick Armstrong]

But does it add anything to a thread about a Rossini opera (and as Jean mentioned, one that is not well known or frequently performed) and a programme devoted to interpretations of it to say that you find the music dull, that you would rather discuss Bruckner or Dvorak symphonies because you find it dull, while others post clips of joke performances of the "Lone Ranger" (probably the only part of the opera they know)? Look at this thread - how many people have meaningfully commented on the work or the programme? Doesn't it, as jean suggested, tend to prejudice people against the work and the programme if even before it is broadcast most of the comments about it are negative (and comments made, I suggest, by people who have never heard the work right through)?

I agree, it would be great if more people had posted their positive views - but as to "adding anything", I see no problem with simply expressing an opinion - that adds something to the thread, as vinteuil did in favour of the piece in the context of Rossini's works:

Perhaps the serious operas of Rossini are an acquired taste. I love them

"I love them" / "I find them dull" - these are expressions of opinion, or of taste as vinteuil says, and that's what this Forum is for. If individuals with the expertise, time and inclination wish to add analysis, then great - that would add something further.

Perhaps we should draw a line under this off-topic debate about what this thread or the Forum generally are for, and give you, jean and others who feel strongly in favour of "William Tell" the space to add to the thread your further positive views about the work and its consideration on BAL, to counterbalance the negative opinions?

[aeolium]

[COLOR="#0000FF"]

Perhaps we should draw a line under this off-topic debate about what this thread or the Forum generally are for, and give you, jean and others who feel strongly in favour of "William Tell" the space to add to the thread your further positive views about the work and its consideration on BAL, to counterbalance the negative opinions?

Thanks for that, Caliban. I have already made some comments about the BaL upthread, and I posted a review of the WNO performance of Guillaume Tell on this thread which has some follow-up comments. I'm hoping to hear jean's review of the performance if she has time. I've also posted a review on the other Rossini opera seria which WNO are doing this autumn, the even less frequently performed Moise in Egitto.

I think to be fair to the critics of Guillaume Tell, it is a very long piece, one of the earlier Grand Operas, and it is hard, simply listening to brief extracts, to get the flow and development that is needed to give an idea of the build-up of tension towards the climax of the piece. I think that would also be true of a 45-minute BaL on, for instance, Götterdämmerung, however professionally it was done. But I had the sense, watching the whole work unfold in the WNO production, of a new use of harmony, of instrumental colour to depict the natural world (as in Weber) combined with the excitement of an early romantic liberation opera, with stirring choruses. Some of the arias and duets are phenomenally taxing for the singers, but the musical style seemed to me radically different from that of his earlier comic operas - and that may well have been what attracted first Berlioz and then Wagner to the power of the music.

Apologies if I have overreacted earlier in the thread, but I just find people's enthusiasms more interesting than their dislikes.

[Flosshilde]

Apologies if I have overreacted earlier in the thread,

As I said, your feelings very much reflected mine (& so I obviously don't think you overreacted ). The opera was perfomed at the Proms a couple of years ago, & I listened because a) I only knew the obvious extract from the overture, & wanted to hear what the rest was like, & b) I've heard a couple of Rossini's serious operas - Mose in Egito at ENO many years ago, & Ermione in a TV broadcast from Glyndebourne (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYzRXLKfBAw) & thought that they were rather more interesting than his comic operas, & wanted to hear more. It was well worth listening to; I'm not sure that a programme analysing different recordings is quite the right format to persuade someone who isn't very keen on opera, or serious Rossini, of its merits.
Part of the reason I was iritated by the negative posts was the fact that they were 'dissing' something I liked in a rather trivialising way; I have said on threads about Mozart that I don't appreciate his music, but not in a similarly trivialising manner.

[jean]

[COLOR="#0000FF"]"I love them" / "I find them dull" - these are expressions of opinion, or of taste...

There's a dstinction that shouldn't be too hard to spot between "I find it dull" and " this opera is dire, whichever way you look at it!"

I may comment further after I've heard the BAL. I have already posted links to reviews of the production I've just seen.

[jean]

Part of the reason I was iritated by the negative posts was the fact that they were 'dissing' something I liked in a rather trivialising way; I have said on threads about Mozart that I don't appreciate his music, but not in a similarly trivialising manner.

I felt that too.

And as I said above, everyone knows plenty of Mozart and is unlikely to be put off exploring his music further by negative comments.

[visualnickmos]

I just wonder why people who are completely uninterested in a work would listen to a BaL about it.

As I said in one of my posts on here, I wanted to listen especially because I had never heard anything of this work at all - apart from the ubiquitous obvious. After listening to the BaL, I felt there was nothing that attracted me to it. What's wrong with saying that on a thread intended as a discussion, which implies the possibility of expressing an opinion? It's as if this work is some sort of sacred cow!

Would they also enjoy people derailing a thread about music they loved to discuss anything else other than the work or the programme or to post jokey clips about the music?

Fine by me. Why should it be otherwise?

[visualnickmos]

I find this a strange parallel. I don't think any of the 'dullards' said they found all music, or even all opera, dull.

Yes - quite so. Well said.

[aeolium]

As I said in one of my posts on here, I wanted to listen especially because I had never heard anything of this work at all - apart from the ubiquitous obvious. After listening to the BaL, I felt there was nothing that attracted me to it. What's wrong with saying that on a thread intended as a discussion, which implies the possibility of expressing an opinion? It's as if this work is some sort of sacred cow!

Nothing wrong with that. But what about all the negative opinions - not yours - before the programme had even been broadcast, references to Norman Wisdom/Spike Jones versions of the overture etc? It's the sort of equivalent of someone posting the Dudley Moore Britten parody every time there is a BaL of one of his operas.

Fine by me. Why should it be otherwise?

Why should it be like that? Do you like wading through such stuff to find any meaningful comment about the music or the programme?

[visualnickmos]

Nothing wrong with that. But what about all the negative opinions - not yours - before the programme had even been broadcast, references to Norman Wisdom/Spike Jones versions of the overture etc? It's the sort of equivalent of someone posting the Dudley Moore Britten parody every time there is a BaL of one of his operas.

Broadly speaking I agree with your point, above. However, on any forum board you just have to take the rough with the smooth. Part of the territory. It would be a totally ambiguous and impossible task to attempt to stipulate what one can or cannot say in a discussion, in advance. After the comments are merely opinions, and we may choose or not, to agree or disagree.

Why should it be like that? Do you like wading through such stuff to find any meaningful comment about the music or the programme?

To be honest, it doesn't bother me. It is up to the reader, ie you or me, or whoever, to decide what we feel is valid or not, and our decisions on that are purely individual.

[Karafan]

The Lone Ranger aside, the only thing I can remember about this opera is its unbearable length, as it lulled me to sleep at ROHCG about fifteen years ago. Awakened after many hours, I was taken to Rules for jugged hare by one of the spear-carriers, who assured me I hadn't missed anything significant.

It is worth this board's modest entrance fee to simply read the phrase "jugged hare", being provided by an obliging spear-carrier. You made my evening

[Don Petter]

It is worth this board's modest entrance fee to simply read the phrase "jugged hare", being provided by an obliging spear-carrier. You made my evening

Careful! The flippancy police are on patrol.

[Flosshilde]

Well, I want to know the full story behind the young Keraulophone being plied with jugged hare in louche restaurants by spear carriers.

[Nick Armstrong]

Well, I want to know the full story behind the young Keraulophone being plied with jugged hare in louche restaurants by spear carriers.

I've thought of little else since his post!


btw: Karafan - agreed! I think it's a contender for post of the year!

[verismissimo]

Competition for Spike Jones from the Portsmouth Sinfonia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDZZEfrRbdw

Justa bitta fun, aeo...