BaL 25.10.14 - Strauss: Oboe Concerto

[richardfinegold]

Barbi has made an excellent and pertinent point - I suppose much depends on which "repertoire" we're talking about - is it accurate to include operas and choral works with orchestral? Or are we discussing recorded repertoire only? In which case, should we exclude Rock and Jazz recordings?

Murky waters, but I would be (genuinely) interested to hear from anybody why they believe that the Oboe Concerto isn't a "masterpiece": where are its deficiencies? What criteria are being used to make such a judgement?

It's deficiencies would consist of the middling thematic material in I which seems to noodle on endlessly, and the even more forgettable material of the finale. I like the slow movement. That's 1 out of 3. In American baseball that success ratio would be rewarded with endless riches. Your mileage may vary.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But "forgettable" is demonstrably incorrect - witness the soloists (and conductors) who perform the work from memory - regardless of mileage.

My "genuinely" was genuine - I'm genuinely interested in the term "masterpiece" and how it is (and has been) used generally; are there objective features of a work that demonstrate that it is anything other than the work of a master composer? (teamsaint's Venn Diagrams, if you like) Or is it entirely reception-history based: the difference between saying "I don't like brocolli" and "This brocolli is poorly cooked"?

[teamsaint]

But "forgettable" is demonstrably incorrect - witness the soloists (and conductors) who perform the work from memory - regardless of mileage.

My "genuinely" was genuine - I'm genuinely interested in the term "masterpiece" and how it is (and has been) used generally; are there objective features of a work that demonstrate that it is anything other than the work of a master composer? (teamsaint's Venn Diagrams, if you like) Or is it entirely reception-history based: the difference between saying "I don't like brocolli" and "This brocolli is poorly cooked"?

Sorry to jump in so quickly, on what is an interesting side track ( new thread needed ?).

One description that for some reason rather stuck in my mind was a description of Stanley Bate's Symphony #3 as " his masterpiece". No doubt the writer had good reason for this usage.
So,at any level it is semantics and in my example, the pronoun changes a great deal....BUT.......

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I welcome "jumpings-in", and I'm not expecting "solutions" - just as many ideas as people think useful/interesting/valid. Is the word just a lazy way of saying "I like it a lot" (in which case, wouldn't it be a good idea to jettison its use entirely and be more honest with ourselves) or are there more substantial, demonstrable aspects beyond semantics?

And, yes - this is probably better placed in a separate Thread.

[Richard Barrett]

I suspect that the three Strauss works are played more often and in more countries than the Britten and Messaien pieces - hence my reference to the repertoire

You are of course defining "the repertoire" as music that's played in concerts around the world, but one could just as easily define "the repertoire" as music that exists in the sense of having been written, though maybe not performed as often or as widely. Looked at that way, the three Strauss works you mention have had a negligible impact on the repertoire! (Massively less than either Britten or Messiaen, to name the two other composers cited.)

What are the deficiencies of Strauss' Oboe Concerto? Well, I certainly don't regard it as forgettable in the least - it's certainly among my favourite Strauss pieces and I might not be able to conduct it from memory but I think I know it quite well. On the other hand Strauss's obvious deep knowledge of and involvement with the solo part did I think lead to a reduction in the attention to detail in the orchestral accompaniment, which I think is relatively less inspired.

Re "masterpiece" I think it harks back to a time when music (especially large-scale music) was a lot less accessible than it is now, and when musical styles were a lot less divergent. In the mid-19th century almost everyone who knew about such things would probably agree that Beethoven's 9th symphony was a "masterpiece", whereas now there can be no such agreement (even about Beethoven's 9th but certainly about almost everything composed since then). Using the word now means falling into FG's broccoli pot where it means something different to everyone. It's not a word I use at all.

[Barbirollians]

I had forgotten quite how lovely the Lothar Koch version is . That old Galleria CD of his version of the Oboe Concerto , Karajan's 1971 Metamorphosen topped with he Janowitz Four Last Songs is a treat - shame they did not replicate it for the Originals series .

[LaurieWatt]

You are of course defining "the repertoire" as music that's played in concerts around the world, but one could just as easily define "the repertoire" as music that exists in the sense of having been written, though maybe not performed as often or as widely. Looked at that way, the three Strauss works you mention have had a negligible impact on the repertoire! (Massively less than either Britten or Messiaen, to name the two other composers cited.)

What are the deficiencies of Strauss' Oboe Concerto? Well, I certainly don't regard it as forgettable in the least - it's certainly among my favourite Strauss pieces and I might not be able to conduct it from memory but I think I know it quite well. On the other hand Strauss's obvious deep knowledge of and involvement with the solo part did I think lead to a reduction in the attention to detail in the orchestral accompaniment, which I think is relatively less inspired.

Re "masterpiece" I think it harks back to a time when music (especially large-scale music) was a lot less accessible than it is now, and when musical styles were a lot less divergent. In the mid-19th century almost everyone who knew about such things would probably agree that Beethoven's 9th symphony was a "masterpiece", whereas now there can be no such agreement (even about Beethoven's 9th but certainly about almost everything composed since then). Using the word now means falling into FG's broccoli pot where it means something different to everyone. It's not a word I use at all.

I am reminded that some years ago playing in a performance of this concerto how I was amazed to discover that Strauss repeated his trick in Ein Heldenleben of quoting from his earlier works. I must go back and check how many I spotted then but wonder how many boarders have picked this up and how many works you can identify as being quoted. Metamorphosen, possibly, Don Quixote, certainly, one of the horn concerti - I must check which - Tod und Verklarung, I think...and so on!