BaL 27.09.14 - Holst: The Planets

[gradus]

I wish R3 would revive Performances on Record which I think would suit DON's approach rather better than BAL. I didn't get a feeling of choice based on overall performance although I assume that was intended.

[visualnickmos]

OK - lets take the point of the "GEbAB" motif at the beginning of Uranus. In what ways are the fact that this is a German motif of the composer's name relevant to the performances under review? Does his "chosen one" make this audible - do those that fell by the wayside do so because they don't make it clear that this is the composer's autograph?

But it's these little asides that are so fascinating and add interest in the piece being reviewed in a broader sense than merely a clinical analysis, per se.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But it's these little asides that are so fascinating and add interest in the piece being reviewed in a broader sense than merely a clinical analysis, per se.

OK - so, with your added interest, did you see why DON chose the Jarvi?

[visualnickmos]

OK - so, with your added interest, did you see why DON chose the Jarvi?

Yes - I saw why he chose it, but it's not necessarily that I would choose it, based on my - as a layman's - almost entirely subjective criteria. Very often a performance, live or CD has to 'get' you more or less immediately - often the reason why it gets you, is not readily identifiable. Just enjoy, enjoy, enjoy... That's what I do at any rate!

[Pabmusic]

Yes - I saw why he chose it, but it's not necessarily that I would choose it, based on my - as a layman's - almost entirely subjective criteria. Very often a performance, live or CD has to 'get' you more or less immediately - often the reason why it gets you, is not readily identifiable. Just enjoy, enjoy, enjoy... That's what I do at any rate!

No, not at all. A recommendation for "Building a Library" surely must do something more than 'get' you for an unidentifiable reason. This is something that is supposed to be the essence of The Planets - the epitome of a performance. Surely we can expect a reason...

[ahinton]

OK - lets take the point of the "GEbAB" motif at the beginning of Uranus. In what ways are the fact that this is a German motif of the composer's name relevant to the performances under review? Does his "chosen one" make this audible - do those that fell by the wayside do so because they don't make it clear that this is the composer's autograph?

Well, DON did at least give the late and much lamented Malcolm MacDonald credit for this and I did think it worth of mention.

The references to Hardy and the peasants' dance in Jupiter - aside from giving us an insight into DON's cleverness, how does it affect the performance of the piece, and in what way(s) is it represented in Jarvi's recording that isn't in, say, Boult's or Ormandy's?

Again, worthy of mention en passant but in principle I agree with you, especially because DON did rather flog it to death.

Or the various layered ostinati: which recordings don't play these? They're there in every recording ever made; what was the point of pointing them out?

Pointing them out is fine; rabbiting on about them incessantly as though they almost represent the entire fons et origo of the piece is enough to get on anyone's nerves!

Useful in the Discovering Music that DON so obviously wanted to present, but wasting time in the context of a BaL.

As was the self-congratulatory preening that you mention; I would quite go as far as you in putting it like that, but it nevertheless came across to me as a sadly far from atypical example of DON's desires to succeed as an "entertainer" with all his neat semi-Lebrecht-like quips and catchphrases (which NL does better anyway) and draw attention to the manner and matter of his presentation rather than the music itself. There were undoubtedly good bits in it, but spoilt, I fear, by a superabundance of Norrissisms...

[DracoM]

Genuinely taken aback by some of the comments on this BAL. Talk about playing the man and not the ball.
Self-preening? Tosh.
While DON recommended the Jarvi, he was VERY careful to find and point out excellence elsewhere eg Dutoit / Elder.
As a potential buyer he let ME choose because he did enough with enough versions for me to feel I had the field well-set out.
What do people want - a command? DON treated his audience as adults who like to hear the evidence analytically presented so as to make up their own minds.

[LeMartinPecheur]

DON did give a list of things he demanded in any decent (in his opinion) performance: an audible organ, an un-jokey Uranus, and quite a few more, and had already demonstrated the difference many of them made. He specifically said that Jarvi won it for him for its (IIRC) clearly audible tenor tuba in a particular passage he'd played. But I can't say this leapt out of the aural picture for me

Think I'll stick with what's already on my shelves, the 60s HMV Boult on LP and Levi (the last BaL recommendation?), Dutoit, Holst, and (soon to arrive) Steinberg on CD. Comments above make me regret parting with the BSO/ Hurst LP though

[mercia]

I didn't know that DON had wanted to present Discovering Music - its certainly the sort of programme I would like to hear him present - and if fhg presented a Radio 3 programme I'm sure I'd listen to that too. I'm afraid I never listen to BaL with the intention of buying any of the recordings, but simply to learn things about the music (in the absence of the aforementioned Discovering Music).

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

and the Hardy peasant dance was used to reference Hermann's recording as well as the delightful aside that Hardy heard it on T E Lawrence's gramophone ... DON is after all an academic, and his was a professor's BAL, not a critic's - detailed, non-partisan and thorough ... and his style of address is a constant in all his appeareances on radio and tv; and for me not an affectation but an expression of character and personality

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Genuinely taken aback by some of the comments on this BAL.

Why?

Talk about playing the man and not the ball.

As opposed to

Tried to get interested. Sorry, but Anna Picard's voice, a relentlessly un-radio voice, made the opera as interesting as a shopping list.

?

What do people want - a command? DON treated his audience as adults who like to hear the evidence analytically presented so as to make up their own minds.

I preferred Ms Picard's idea of "treating [her] audience as adults who like to hear the evidence analytically presented so as to make up their own minds."

[HighlandDougie]

I fear that DON is, to use the modern cliché, a bit marmite. In terms of a smackability rating for general showing-off of how clever he is, this morning's programme was fairly low down the scale (by comparison with earlier BaLs on, say, the Grieg Piano Concerto). While one undoubtedly learns something from listening to him, he does rather overplay to the gallery, wearing his learning just a bit too heavily at times (we were thankfully spared whistling this time). In all fairness, it makes for enjoyable if occasionally teeth-grittingly irritating listening. He certainly made me listen this morning - and what he had to say made sense to me, up to a point. I got rather lost when he was talking about 'Neptune' - are record producers concerned simply to achieve the maximum possible fade-out? Or are they primed to cut it off at the right moment? Does it matter? I thought that he was about to recommend Dutoit but Jarvi seemed as good a choice as any. I found myself being very impressed by the performance from Stuttgart. I'm not typing the conductor's name as it will no doubt bring forth the usual string of "Disgusted, Tunbridge Wells"-type comments.

[amateur51]

I fear that DON is, to use the modern cliché, a bit marmite. In terms of a smackability rating for general showing-off of how clever he is, this morning's programme was fairly low down the scale (by comparison with earlier BaLs on, say, the Grieg Piano Concerto). While one undoubtedly learns something from listening to him, he does rather overplay to the gallery, wearing his learning just a bit too heavily at times (we were thankfully spared whistling this time). In all fairness, it makes for enjoyable if occasionally teeth-grittingly irritating listening. He certainly made me listen this morning - and what he had to say made sense to me, up to a point. I got rather lost when he was talking about 'Neptune' - are record producers concerned simply to achieve the maximum possible fade-out? Or are they primed to cut it off at the right moment? Does it matter? I thought that he was about to recommend Dutoit but Jarvi seemed as good a choice as any. I found myself being very impressed by the performance from Stuttgart. I'm not typing the conductor's name as it will no doubt bring forth the usual string of "Disgusted, Tunbridge Wells"-type comments.

Very balanced, HD

[visualnickmos]

It seems as if most of the discussion on here is more concerned with the reviewer than actually with the music in question. Maybe it would be good to talk about that, 'contrasting and comparing' our favourite - or not - versions, and why..... you get the picture

[Tapiola]

I must say, I too was underwhelmed by today's BaL. Perhaps I missed some of it (and I may sit corrected by those who heard the whole programme), but I cannot (imo) understand how any critique of this work could overlook Boult's 1966 recording with the New Phil in light of Holst's own description of Mars as conveying the STUPIDITY of war. Other recordings may display greater orchestral virtuosity and amazing sound (e.g. Dutoit) but Boult's 1966 Mars encapsulates the brutal unthinking stupidity of conflict to a tee.