Building a Library - General Discussion

[Stunsworth]

I think that ought to be the required method. I also wish that reviewers played each excerpt without revealing the performers in advance, so that the listeners are also 'listening blind'.

The French have exactly that programme. The recordings are labelled A,B,C etc. Neither the reviewers nor the listeners know what the individual recordings are. Obviously not practical with 20+ recordings.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I wonder if reviewers ever regret their choice when it's too late.

John Steane (in)famously "changed his mind" about Tristan & Isolde recordings: in the late '70s he gave Karajan the accolade (over Fürtwängler, Bohm and Solti); about twelve years later, he chose Fürtwängler and spent a deal of time pointing out what he perceived to be flaws in the Karajan.

[pastoralguy]

The most scandalous of these discards was recently , as pastoralguy will agree ! , Ida Haendel's recording of the Britten Concerto.

I listened to that recording a few times recently. It is, for me, one of the great performances of ANY violin concerto by any soloist. I know the great Ida has very outspoken opinions on a lot of topics - including the BBC, so I wondered if perhaps there was a few old scores being settles here.

Could you REALLY have a Bal on the Beethoven concerto without mentioning Menuhin or Schubert piano sonatas without giving a nod to Brendel?

[Barbirollians]

I listened to that recording a few times recently. It is, for me, one of the great performances of ANY violin concerto by any soloist. I know the great Ida has very outspoken opinions on a lot of topics - including the BBC, so I wondered if perhaps there was a few old scores being settles here.

Could you REALLY have a Bal on the Beethoven concerto without mentioning Menuhin or Schubert piano sonatas without giving a nod to Brendel?

Agreed - it is shockingly only available in a giant box set at present - though there are copies around . The Walton with which it is coupled is equally superb.

[pastoralguy]

In fairness, I think that CD Review are (s....l....o....w....l....y) coming round to the fact that this new fangled internet gizmo thing is having an effect on the way we purchase music and the dreaded words 'No longer available' is no longer a shut door to acquiring a recording. (Although it may have to be SHOCK - HORROR - second hand!!)

[Il Grande Inquisitor]

After following with interest the "Good and Bad BaLs" thread, here's a simpler question. Can anyone shed light on how BaLs are compiled when the work is mainstream repertoire? How would you cope if confronted with dozens of Brandenburgs or Eroicas or -- to be topical -- Rach Symphony 2s?

An interesting question, Extended Play. I haven't done a 'Building a Library', but did conduct an IRR equivalent last autumn on Verdi's Don Carlo(s). I'm about to embark on another such feature.

Surely it's naive to suppose that reviewers listen dutifully to every one from start to finish. Let's be realistic: won't a good many recordings be dumped before listening begins, based on personal prejudice or any number of other factors?

It may have been naive, but I listened to every commercial studio recording, plus many live performances which have been issued on 'official' labels, or labels specialising in such material. I also watched all available DVDs, so about 35 versions in total (of a long opera!). Some performances I already knew very well, of course, while others were new to me. I listened to/ watched each one in full, (often with a copy of the score) many more than once, and made copious notes. There was nothing I didn't bother listening to on account of prejudice.

I wonder if reviewers ever regret their choice when it's too late. Do some deliberately go for an eye-catching, unexpected recommendation? And when it's all over, how do you get umpteen performances of the same piece out of your head? Or do you just hate it for life?

I don't think I could ever hate Don Carlos and will be back to see it at the ROH next season!

[Il Grande Inquisitor]

I have often heard reviewers refer to 'blind listening', often resulting in surprising choices - at least in the early stages of reviewing.

Like a few members here, I listen to the France Muqisue programme Le Jardin des critiques which, like its even better predecessor La Tribune des critiques de disques, which features 'blind listening'. This is frequently fascinating and I wish there were a UK equivalent. (Discussing the idea with Rob Cowan once, he was extremely enthusiastic, but doubted whether many critics would be willing to take part, given the massive 'egg on face' potential for savaging a recording 'blind' you had perhaps previously praised in print!)

I sometimes 'listen blind' in comparing a few versions of a work for review... it doesn't work nearly so well for opera, as I tend to recognise many of the voices which tend to give the game away, but for orchestral/ chamber music, it offers a fresh perspective.

[Petrushka]

I would guess that most of the reviewers, (chosen as experts for their knowledge of the work and recordings of it otherwise why are they there?) will be familiar with most of the versions on offer and might need a dip into one or two just to refresh the memory. They will then, I would imagine, listen to those recordings complete that are new to them. At least if I was doing a BaL on Mahler 2 (please Andrew, I'm still awaiting the call) that's what I would do.

Recent BaL's of mainstream repertoire where there are very many recordings seem to me to be valueless and indicate that the format is out-dated and may have run its course.

[Extended Play]

Il Grande Inquisitor, #13 and #14: fascinating testimony. Thank you for answering several of the original questions, and for the insight into your painstaking, exhaustive preparations for the Verdi review.

[aeolium]

I sometimes 'listen blind' in comparing a few versions of a work for review... it doesn't work nearly so well for opera, as I tend to recognise many of the voices which tend to give the game away, but for orchestral/ chamber music, it offers a fresh perspective.

Yes, and quite a few singers in lieder would be immediately recognisable (e.g. Ferrier), as well as historical performers like the Busch quartet or Schnabel in Beethoven. Even so, I'd love to hear a BaL where a reviewer had forced himself to listen blind, and played all extracts for blind listening (calling them performance A, B, C etc) before revealing the performances at the end when he is close to selecting a first choice. It would obviously work better for a non-mainstream work (I agree with Petrushka about there being far too many mainstream BaLs) not least as listeners would be less familiar with performances anyway.

[martin_opera]

An interesting question, Extended Play. I haven't done a 'Building a Library', but did conduct an IRR equivalent last autumn on Verdi's Don Carlo(s). I'm about to embark on another such feature.



It may have been naive, but I listened to every commercial studio recording, plus many live performances which have been issued on 'official' labels, or labels specialising in such material. I also watched all available DVDs, so about 35 versions in total (of a long opera!). Some performances I already knew very well, of course, while others were new to me. I listened to/ watched each one in full, (often with a copy of the score) many more than once, and made copious notes. There was nothing I didn't bother listening to on account of prejudice.



I don't think I could ever hate Don Carlos and will be back to see it at the ROH next season!

You're being too modest IGI. This IRR review was a balm to me and confirmed the flaws in my then magazine of choice (Gramophone) and especially what I had considered to be a dreadfully superficial survey of Le Nozze Di Figaro.

Your conclusion on the Don Carlo(s) was inspired - the other Gabriele Santini recording. I had always tended to listen to the Giulini, Karajan, Levine and Solti recordings in my collection and sample the EMI Santini for Gobbi and Christoff. Following your excellent survey I now proclaim the DG Santini at least an equal to the more famous and more well regarded versions.

Much of this I am convinced has to do with "listening blind" or "removing the perceived wisdom of others" from your mind. The number of times I have read that Stella is uninvolving or Bastianini bland but beautiful must have sunk in and dissuaded me from appreciating the recording on its own terms. On the strength of your survey I was prepared to give it another go.

The reviewing industry tends to roll out the same criticisms of singers and conductors in general and misses the specific moments of brilliance that they may have e.g. Del Monaco is always loud, Richard Tucker is always lachrymose; Ricciarelli is always unsteady; Corelli is always unsubtle. They can't all be Callas' or Sutherland's but the tendency to label means we miss out on some truly underrated recordings like this Don Carlo. It's a find as revelatory as the Jochum Cosi Fan Tutte which was hailed as the best by Kenneth Furie in the Metropolitan Guide and is now a firm favourite.

Perhaps another thread on "recordings worth another listen" would be worthwhile to remedy this. For my money it would include the Levine Aida with Millo; the Votto Boheme with Poggi; the Sinopoli Carmen with Larmore; the Leinsdorf Forza with Tucker; the Muti Rigoletto with Dessi; the Leinsdorf Butterly with Moffo - but not perhaps the Moffo Thais!

Looking forward to the next survey.

[rauschwerk]

It may have been naive, but I listened to every commercial studio recording, plus many live performances which have been issued on 'official' labels, or labels specialising in such material. I also watched all available DVDs, so about 35 versions in total (of a long opera!).

Well, good for you. I have three questions:-

1) How many hours did that take you?

2) What would that make your fee at what you consider a reasonable hourly rate?

3) How much can the BBC afford for a 45 minute radio programme?

I'm willing to bet that there's a huge discrepancy between (2) and (3)!

[Nick Armstrong]

Like a few members here, I listen to the France Muqisue programme Le Jardin des critiques which, like its even better predecessor La Tribune des critiques de disques, which features 'blind listening'. This is frequently fascinating and I wish there were a UK equivalent. (Discussing the idea with Rob Cowan once, he was extremely enthusiastic, but doubted whether many critics would be willing to take part, given the massive 'egg on face' potential for savaging a recording 'blind' you had perhaps previously praised in print!)

How's your French aeolium?

The trade off for the French format is that they only start by examining (usually) six recordings - sometimes that's 7 or 8. In the new format ("Le Jardin") there tend to me more versions - for the first hour of the two-hour prog, they leave them anonymous, but then usually do a reveal half-way through, having eliminated a couple, so you know what you're hearing for the rest of the show.

I'm just listening to the former programme ("La Tribune")'s review in 2009 of Dvorak's Cello Concerto, as a spin off from CD Review (thanks for the reminder, IGI). Wispelwey, Mörk and Rostro/Karajan have just bitten the dust, the remaining three versions include one that they are going potty about. I can't remember which it is... It's actually quite exciting (I know, I should get out more).

In short, aeolium, the blind listening approach has many advantages

(Incidentally, the French now often abandon the attempt when it's an opera, for the reasons IGI says - those with any experience will recognise the voices, so there's no point. Personally, apart from Schwartzkopf, Pears, Baker... , I don't have enough opera knowledge to recognise all the Italians from one another so I regret that - but that's just me).

[Barbirollians]

How's your French aeolium?

The trade off for the French format is that they only start by examining (usually) six recordings - sometimes that's 7 or 8. In the new format ("Le Jardin") there tend to me more versions - for the first hour of the two-hour prog, they leave them anonymous, but then usually do a reveal half-way through, having eliminated a couple, so you know what you're hearing for the rest of the show.

I'm just listening to the former programme ("La Tribune")'s review in 2009 of Dvorak's Cello Concerto, as a spin off from CD Review (thanks for the reminder, IGI). Wispelwey, Mörk and Rostro/Karajan have just bitten the dust, the remaining three versions include one that they are going potty about. I can't remember which it is... It's actually quite exciting (I know, I should get out more).

In short, aeolium, the blind listening approach has many advantages

(Incidentally, the French now often abandon the attempt when it's an opera, for the reasons IGI says - those with any experience will recognise the voices, so there's no point. Personally, apart from Schwartzkopf, Pears, Baker... , I don't have enough opera knowledge to recognise all the Italians from one another so I regret that - but that's just me).

Don't tease us ! Which one did they go potty about was it Fournier/Szell ???

[amateur51]

Perhaps another thread on "recordings worth another listen" would be worthwhile to remedy this. For my money it would include the Levine Aida with Millo; the Votto Boheme with Poggi; the Sinopoli Carmen with Larmore; the Leinsdorf Forza with Tucker; the Muti Rigoletto with Dessi; the Leinsdorf Butterly with Moffo - but not perhaps the Moffo Thais!

I think you've got the makings of a very useful thread there, martin_opera