BaL 26.04.14 - Haydn Symphony no. 101 "Clock"

[verismissimo]

That's absolutely true, I think. As a Haydn enthusiast, I often try and persuade people (not with much success) that in his different way he was just as fine a composer as Mozart.

Ditto.

[MickyD]

When I listen to the symphonies, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area. So much wit, grace and charm.

[visualnickmos]

When I listen to the symphonies, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area. So much wit, grace and charm.

I think we risk treading on dangerous ground when saying one genius is "better" than another. If qualified by saying 'prefers' one, compared to another, that's a different matter. Otherwise it assumes there is some unseen oracle who is the final arbitrator of who is best. As though level of creativity or genius or whatever, is somehow preset in stone.....

I'm rambling

[Roehre]

... I often try and persuade people ... that in his different way Haydn was just as fine a composer as Mozart.

Makes three of us

[Thropplenoggin]

That's absolutely true, I think. As a Haydn enthusiast, I often try and persuade people (not with much success) that in his different way he was just as fine a composer as Mozart.

I think it's the sheer volume of his output that makes people dubious, along the lines of 'How could it all be good? Isn't much of it mere hackwork?' I suffer this with Haydn, but not with WAM. And yet, if Mozart had lived, he would have been even more prodigious than Haydn. Even as it stands, WAM's oeuvre is enormous and yet I find his works mostly impressive...even the juvenilia.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Perhaps when I retire I shall be able to explore Haydn's operas. My reason for particularly wanting to do so comes from hearing an absolutely wonderful baritone or bass aria that was completely new to me on In Tune as I drove home several years ago. Startlingly dramatic, it just had to be some rarity of Mozart's. A concert or insertion aria perhaps?

WRONG, it was Haydn!! I was so surprised that I forgot to make an proper mental note of what...

[MickyD]

I think we risk treading on dangerous ground when saying one genius is "better" than another. If qualified by saying 'prefers' one, compared to another, that's a different matter. Otherwise it assumes there is some unseen oracle who is the final arbitrator of who is best. As though level of creativity or genius or whatever, is somehow preset in stone.....

I'm rambling

Sorry, visualnickmos..I should of course have qualified that remark with "in my opinion." I wasn't trying to be a final arbitrator, but I do honestly prefer Haydn to Mozart when it comes to the genre of the symphony.

[vinteuil]

When I listen to the symphonies, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area. So much wit, grace and charm.

When I listen to the symphonies, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area. So much wit, grace and charm.

When I listen to the quartets, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area.
When I listen to the piano sonatas, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area.
When I listen to the Masses, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area.

[Thropplenoggin]

When I listen to the symphonies, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area. So much wit, grace and charm.

When I listen to the quartets, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area.
When I listen to the piano sonatas, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area.
When I listen to the Masses, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area.

N'importe quoi!

[visualnickmos]

Sorry, visualnickmos..I should of course have qualified that remark with "in my opinion." I wasn't trying to be a final arbitrator, but I do honestly prefer Haydn to Mozart when it comes to the genre of the symphony.

Sorry from me too - I wasn't suggesting you furnishing your good self as the "final arbitrator!" I find that on balance I prefer Mozart, (although a few of his symphonies do nothing for me) but I love Haydn's later symphonies - generalising - from the 80s upwards. However, as far as their respective string quartets go, it's got be Haydn for me.

[verismissimo]

When I listen to the symphonies, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area. So much wit, grace and charm.

When I listen to the quartets, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area.
When I listen to the piano sonatas, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area.
When I listen to the Masses, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area.

Also:
When I listen to his piano trios.

So what are we left with firmly in the WAM camp?
Piano concertos
Horn concertos
Violin concertos (and the Sinfonia Concertante)
Music in various ensembles for clarinet
Operas (although H's are full of wonderful music, have a reputation for being poor dramatically, and are usually given in second-rate performances)

[Sir Velo]

When I listen to the symphonies, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area. So much wit, grace and charm.

When I listen to the quartets, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area.
When I listen to the piano sonatas, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area.
When I listen to the Masses, I think he was even better than Mozart in that area.

When I listen to the keyboard trios, I think he was a better composer than Mozart in that genre.

When I listen to the piano concertos, I know that Mozart was a greater composer than Haydn in that genre.

[waldo]

When I listen to the keyboard trios, I think he was a better composer than Mozart in that genre.

When I listen to the piano concertos, I know that Mozart was a greater composer than Haydn in that genre.

Thank the Lord for some common sense at last. I count myself as a "Haydn enthusiast", but he is simply not in the same league as Mozart. It is absolutely ludicrous to maintain that Haydn is superior. What symphony did Haydn write that compares to the Jupiter? Anyone want to put forward a candidate? What opera compares to Figaro or Cosi Fan Tutte?

As for other genres: do Haydn's piano sonatas really compare to Mozart's? Haydn did write some fine sonatas (also a large number of forgettable, workmanlike ones), but are we seriously going to put these on a level with the great, mature Mozart ones? Which ones of Haydn's really match K457 or K533/494 or K333?

As for the masses, I'd like to see what Haydn mass can take on the Requiem or C minor mass. Good luck with that one.

I do accept the piano trio comparison, however. Mozart only wrote a very small number and these are not among his best work. You could also, I suppose, make a case for Haydn being an equal master at the string quartet - though I don't think he ever matched the consistent beauty or inspiration of the Mozart's six great "Haydn" quartets. Otherwise, he is just not on the same level.

Anyone who wants to add "In my humble opinion" to any of my claims, please do if that makes them more palatable.

[Roehre]

Thank the Lord for some common sense at last. I count myself as a "Haydn enthusiast", but he is simply not in the same league as Mozart.

I am certain Haydn is in the same league.

It is absolutely ludicrous to maintain that Haydn is superior.

True, no discussion about that one

What symphony did Haydn write that compares to the Jupiter? Anyone want to put forward a candidate?

What about 102 or 104? And is complexity the same as greatness here?

What opera compares to Figaro or Cosi Fan Tutte?

What compares with the Creation or The Seasons?

As for other genres: do Haydn's piano sonatas really compare to Mozart's? Haydn did write some fine sonatas

He did

(also a large number of forgettable, workmanlike ones)

[as did Mozart],

but are we seriously going to put these on a level with the great, mature Mozart ones? Which ones of Haydn's really match K457 or K533/494 or K333?

sonatas Hob.XVI:49, 50, 51 and 52?

As for the masses, I'd like to see what Haydn mass can take on the Requiem or C minor mass. Good luck with that one.

Nelson-Messe and Paukenmesse, and what to think of the choral version of Die 7 letzten Worte unsereres Erlösers am Kreuze

I do accept the piano trio comparison, however. Mozart only wrote a very small number and these are not among his best work. You could also, I suppose, make a case for Haydn being an equal master at the string quartet - though I don't think he ever matched the consistent beauty or inspiration of the Mozart's six great "Haydn" quartets. Otherwise, he is just not on the same level.

What about Haydn's trumpet-, cello-, or organ concertos? Any Mozartian candidate?
Is allegedly Mozart's sinfonia concertante with winds superior to Haydn's ?
What about the divertimenti for winds (with admittedly Mozart's Gran partita the crowning piece, but for the rest?), the baryton trios, the notturni, the scherzandi, the orchestral version of the 7 letzte Worte....

Anyone who wants to add "In my humble opinion" to any of my claims, please do if that makes them more palatable.

at your service.

IMHO Mozart is overhyped. 2/3 to 3/4 of his output is not better than that of his contemporaties, including the Haydn brothers.
The "prodigy"-story makes Mozart not only a prodigy clavicinist/pianist, but is automatically applied to the composer.
Before KV 364 hardly anything is outstanding compared with his contemporaries (a quote from HC Robins Landon, btw), and where his output IS phenomenal, we are exlusively talking about the operas (thanks to an excellent libritist whom Haydn and others lacked, what about the non-da-Ponte-or-Schikaneder-operas?) and the piano concertos (written for himself to shine, and succesfully so).
Mozart is often played because the name Mozart is on the score, not because of its more-than-average-quality.
He is simply helped by a not level playing field.

[Tony Halstead]

I agree with everything you say / write, Roehre!
As to the greatness of the symphonies, I'd like to add 97 in C and 98 in Bb, two masterpieces 'to be spoken of in the same breath as Mozart's symphony 41' .