BaL 19.03.11 Mahler Symphony no. 10

[Curalach]

[Caliban, I had exactly the same reaction as you to the flute solo in the orginal Proms broadcast!]

I find that interesting. Is it the flute solo itself, ie do you react this way every time you hear it, or was it the recording of the first performance that produced the reaction?

[Nick Armstrong]

I find that interesting. Is it the flute solo itself, ie do you react this way every time you hear it, or was it the recording of the first performance that produced the reaction?

Speaking for myself, I always find it moving. But this morning it was the additional poignant sense that such a sublime and obviously so personal a thing had been created by Mahler but remained silent (and could have gone on being unheard) but was in that moment at last being given life and released into the world.

(I still have some cassettes from an early telephone voicemail machine, on which are messages from a great friend who was killed nearly 20 years ago - once in a while, I listen to them. There is a similar poignancy there).

[BBMmk2]

In, some ways Im found this format rather exasperasting. A reviewer, of Stephen Johnson's calibre, certainly does not need someone else to discuss this or anyother work with. But, in other ways, a format like this brings out other things, likke titbits of knowledge that maybe the other participant hadnt realised.

[pilamenon]

I find that interesting. Is it the flute solo itself, ie do you react this way every time you hear it, or was it the recording of the first performance that produced the reaction?

It was the context in which it was introduced this morning, the sense of an occasion, a voice that was intended to be heard, finally being heard. And the sheer pared-down beauty of it.

A couple of posters have referred to this slot being about "titbits" of knowledge, and perhaps they know everything there is to know about the genesis of this work. But to me that is an unfair description of an exemplary piece of insightful broadcasting.

[amateur51]

I enjoyed this BAL considerably and was pleased particularly to hear the Joe Wheeler completion/Naxos recording and a mention of the Barshai completion. I don't think we heard anything from the Sanderling of Deryck Cooke's second version, however.

I agree with Caliban & others about hearing that flute solo, imagining how Cooke must have felt to hear its being 'released' into the world for the first time in concert in the Albert Hall at a Prom.The Testament release of that concert is a 'must have' for me but not a first choice. Deryck Cooke was clearly a remarkable man and I wonder if there is an autobiography or an extended biography of him other than the notes we get on record sleeves.

I was thinking during the programme about the woman who inspired it all, and how lost and gutted Mahler felt when he discovered about her infidelity. It seems that this was all part of a pattern in her life, even with Zemlinsky before she met & married Mahler.

With the stramash about attractive young female violinists still rumbling on in another thread, perhaps a picture of Alma might put such thoughts in their correct perspective?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2010/12/1/1291224504158/Alma-Mahler-006.jpg

[Curalach]

Caliban and pilamenon, thank you both. I understand. I too find the flute solo almost indescribably beautiful and would also use the word "poignant".
I also thought that the whole discussion, with the excerpts played, was very insightful and opened my mind to deeper reflection on a work I had thought I knew well.
Bws, Iain

[visualnickmos]

Many thanks, Caliban (msg 44)
I had myself started to think about the Bournemouth, as opposed to the BPO, as a 'possible' and your reply has confirmed that! I will try and search it out.
Nick

[Nick Armstrong]

Many thanks, Caliban (msg 44)
I had myself started to think about the Bournemouth, as opposed to the BPO, as a 'possible' and your reply has confirmed that! I will try and search it out.
Nick

Pleasure - try a used one for £2.98!! Then if you don't like it, it's no disaster!

One of the aspects of the eagerness of the performance is that the bass drum thwacks that start the final movement are extremely loud!! Thrilling and visceral (though not the only way of doing it). But if they don't shiver your timbers, nothing will!

Hope you do enjoy it

PS: Mais je vois que vous êtes en France...

Ca coute plus cher là-bas, paraît-il... http://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_sb_nos...emouth&x=0&y=0

Donc vaudrait mieux utiliser amazon.uk je crois

[Nick Armstrong]

I see there is a podcast of this week's discussion, which is good news (given that the Bruckner and Beecham "BAL"s were not available).

[Mahlerei]

I can certainly endorse the enthusiasm for Rattle's Bournemouth Mahler 10. IMV the best thing he's ever done.

[vinteuil]

As mentioned above, I've lived with and loved No 10 for 30 years. The BPO/Rattle version is very good, as they said on BAL, but it lacks the freshness of the earlier Bournemouth performance... If you can find a copy of the latter, I must say I'd start with that.

thanks for the recommendation, Caliban - I'll get a copy and try it out.
I wasn't able to hear all the programme, but very much enjoyed the intelligence of what I did hear - particularly because it's not a work I know well.

Did he/they make any mention of the Michael Gielen / SWR Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden und Freiburg? - I like it for the clarity, but usually prefer Rattle/Berlin PO and Chailly / RSO Berlin...

[visualnickmos]

Thanks again Caliban. (msg 53)

Oui - je suis en France. I often use Amazon UK, although there have been occasions when I have found Amazon France to be considerably cheaper. Just a question of checking all Amazons!

I hope to order it this week.

[Flosshilde]

Like others here I've not listened to the 10th, on the grounds that it isn't 'real' Mahler, but BaL has persuaded me that I should try it (although I have only heard the berginning of the programme so far). One thought did strike me - given that there are a number of different 'completions' two programmes might be neccessary - one to discuss the various versions &, if possible, come up with the 'best', or most effective, and a following programme to discuss the available performances of that version.

[Bryn]

Well as far as it went, the programme seemed fair enough, albeit that I fairly strongly disagree re. the final recommendation. However, the omission of at least four leading contenders (for various reasons) rendered it essentially inconsequential. There was no mention of the Ormandy (the first commercial recording of Cooke 1) none of Gielen (who is particularly important when one considers that he had a major change of mind, from only conducting the Adagio, to revising his opinion and taking on a Cooke performing version). There was a total disregard of the recent Lan Shui recording of the Carpenter completion (a superb performance and recording, whatever one's views re. the completion used), and the Samale/Mazzuca performing version might as well not even exist, let alone have been recorded by the Arnhem Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Martin Sieghart, as far as the Building a Library team are concerned. O.k., that SACD is ridiculously expensive, but it does exist and is worthy of consideration, even if then rejected from the final round-up.

All in all then, this Building a Library edition was quite frankly just not good enough! Effectively it was a superficial run-though of SJ's personal favourites with no serious attention to those he was not already familiar with, it would appear. Oh, and before anyone mentions the defence of current unavailability of particular recordings, the Bournemouth Rattle, and even the Wyn Morris, did get a mention, so that excuse falls at the first fence.

Currently spinning here, a lo-fi edit of the Samale/Mazzuca derived from the YouTube offering. Worth hearing, but not, I think, worth paying the current amazon, or even the cdJapan, asking price for on SACD.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've never quite understood why people are reluctant to listen to "completed" works on the grounds that they are not the total work of the original composer, whether this be Mahler's 10th, Elgar-Payne 3rd, Mozart's Requiem, Schubert's completed 7th, 8th & 10th, Bruckner's 9th or Puccini's Turandot. Is it better to pretend the music doesn't exist, or is it better to hear another musician's/composer's idea of how it might have been? Provided that no attempt is made to deceive the listener, it hardly matters who wrote it.
Consider Jeremiah Clarke's "The Prince of Denmark's March". Does it matter that it was composed by a lesser composer than Purcell (to whom it was once attributed)? Or the Minuet in G formerly attributed to Bach, but now thought to be by Petzold? How much does the name on the top right-hand corner of the music really matter. Surely, it's what the person sitting/standing in front of the music produces that matters.