BaL 19.03.11 Mahler Symphony no. 10

[mathias broucek]

It's sooooo exciting

Although I have not problems about it's echt-ness or otherwise, I know the 10th less well than the other 9 and BAL is a good way of becoming more familier with a work. The fact that there are multiple completion gives this another dimension. (All mine are of Cooke.)

[Nick Armstrong]

I'm sharing others' enthusiasm for this BAL - the luxury 65 minute time-slot suggested by the website listing, Stephen Johnson doing it.. I hope it will be a return to form for BAL which I think has had a disappointing year so far - two Liszt 'Années de Pélerinage' in quick succession ...the slightly half-baked Beecham and Bruckner non-BALs ...the silly Alborada one etc etc.

Mahler 10 is really one to get the teeth into. I had the Rattle/Bournemouth on cassette at University and played the magnetic particles off the side with the final movement on - those drum thwacks, the heart-melting flute solo... it was played to many new friends as the sun set over the autumn trees, steam curled from mugs of tea and the butter dripped from crumpets...

Er-hem... sorry... ...but it was a bit of a talisman piece for me. I stuck with the Rattle for years. And bought the BPO version which I think is also good - meatier sound, also a powerful reading. And I became obssessed for a while with the opening adagio... I have an extraordinary performance with Svetlanov and the RSSO, coupled with No 7, which really digs the guts out of the piece: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symph.../dp/B000003HYC (not mentioned in EA's post #1 perhaps because in that form it is unavailable, although the complete box is I think http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Sym.../dp/B002IYLEN8.)

The only conversation I ever had with Claudio Abbado (also in those student days - I'd hung around behind the RFH, got his autograph, but his limo hadn't appeared, so we were hanging around together) was about Mahler 10 - I asked him if he was going to record the whole piece, and he explained no because he didn't find anything other than the Adagio to be 'real', so he only played that, in the same way as he only played the two movements of Schubert's Unfinished...

[salymap]

I 'inherited' from a late relative the Wigglesworth BBC MM recording and am afraid I've never played it. Thanks to Bryn's comments earlier on this thread, I will give it a spin. The broken box,and missing cover notes rather put me off.

[DoctorT]

What has happened to BAL? Much as I admire AMcG, is he an expert on everything? Why not let SJ get on with it in the tried and tested one presenter dashion?

[Nick Armstrong]

What has happened to BAL? Much as I admire AMcG, is he an expert on everything? Why not let SJ get on with it in the tried and tested one presenter dashion?

Quite - as per my thread last week, http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...ppening-to-BAL

It was a very good listen, though!

[salymap]

IMHO I usually prefer the double format. Andrew and Rob are always good value, and I enjoyed today's programme with Andrew and Stephen Johnson.

[pilamenon]

Why not let SJ get on with it in the tried and tested one presenter dashion?

But AMcG did let SJ get on with it. He argued his views with great clarity throughout, and it was a riveting listen. When it's as good as it was this morning, the two-handed format wins hands down. This is clearly the way BaL is moving.

[Nachtigall]

Yes, I thought the dialogue worked very well. It was interesting to listen with Cooke's full orchestral score in front of me, which prints Mahler's four-bar sketch beneath Cooke's orchestration. I've never invested in any of the other "completions" and certainly won't be acquiring the Clinton Carpenter after listening to his version of the flute passage in the final Adagio with applied "lip-gloss" (Stephen Johnson's metaphor). No mention was made of the Ormandy recording, which preceded the Rattle/BSO by fifteen years and was the first recording following the Cooke/Goldschmidt broadcasts which enabled me really to get to know the symphony in the late 60s.

[Curalach]

As I listened to BAL, which I enjoyed in today's format, I couldn't help wondering how long it would take for a message to appear bemoaning the fact that it wasn't in the traditional form.
Not long was the answer.
One of the things I like about the "discussion" format is that it underlines the fact that the reviewer's is only one persons view. Helps to put it in context.
I'd like to think that BAL might continue to use both formats.

[Nick Armstrong]

But AMcG did let SJ get on with it. He argued his views with great clarity throughout, and it was a riveting listen. When it's as good as it was this morning, the two-handed format wins hands down. This is clearly the way BaL is moving.

Agreed. There was the spectre of 'recent releases' in the background - AMcG introduced it as a look at the various versions (fine) and some 'recent releases' (at which my heart sank, because that trend in recent weeks tends to eliminate a key aspect of BAL, comparing the older versions with the later). But in fact as it turned out, SJ did cover the ground and of course the 'final choice' was from 1999.

I found the extract from the final movement in that 1964 prom overwhelming, helped by SJ deftly putting it in context. Hearing the very moment that unbelievably beautiful flute tune was first given voice had tears running down my face...

[DracoM]

Well, sorry, but I didn't. I dislike the format, and frankly, I found this one particularly exasperating, and actually strangely competitive, as if each were trying to outdo each other in terms of titbits of knowledge.

I find Johnson in his own right a pretty compelling broadcaster and he simply does not need AMcG to hold his hand and guide him. It feels patronising, and the end result for me is diffusion, time consumed, extracts dutifully played, but as for conclusions......? Yes, I know that with an unfinished / uncompleted score that is inevitable, but it is the effect of having two who see themselves as equals quietly striving to make points that leaves the listener a bit frustrated. A single voice's thesis can be evaluated as it unfolds, it has discipline and focus, you can diaagree or agree as it goes along, but inevitably, the currently much beloved BAL format blurs, the listener becomes merely a target rather than a complicit part of the argument.

I genuinely do not see why it is suddenly finding favour. AND it has meant that this a.m., AMcG's voice has been going pretty well non-stop since 9 a.m., because after the BAL slot, he does exactly the same trot with Geoffrey Smith over the Domingo box set. So no variation in format, and it's just not good for the programme's engagement factor to implant such an end to end repetitive model.

Incidentally, no mention of the Huelgas Ensemble's Forty Voice CD earlier in which both the Striggio and the Tallis were given excellent performances?

[visualnickmos]

This was a very interesting and enjoyable BaL, especially as I am only (slightly) familiar with the Adagio. The programme made me want to invest in a complete 10th, but I am nowhwere near being able to decide which one to go for! It seemd that many of the presented versions have something of great merit in them....
I was drawn towards Rattle's BPO version, but having read the postings on here - well that has thrown a cat amongst the pigeons, and I'm now back at square one. Help!!!!

[pilamenon]

I found this one particularly exasperating, and actually strangely competitive, as if each were trying to outdo each other in terms of titbits of knowledge...

Johnson ... simply does not need AMcG to hold his hand and guide him. ... it is the effect of having two who see themselves as equals quietly striving to make points that leaves the listener a bit frustrated. ... AMcG's voice has been going pretty well non-stop since 9 a.m., because after the BAL slot, he does exactly the same trot with Geoffrey Smith over the Domingo box set. So no variation in format, and it's just not good for the programme's engagement factor to implant such an end to end repetitive model.

I can see the point you are making in general terms about the discussion format, and certainly over the course of three hours, it probably made for too much two-handed discussion. And the opera section was much less illuminating - here I felt the guest added very little insight to what we were hearing, and think he is much more interesting when presenting jazz.

But I am really puzzled by what you say regarding the Mahler slot. There was no sense in which SJ was having his hand held, nor of any competitiveness that I could detect. And I cannot imagine many clearer expositions of the issues surrounding the 10th symphony than we got.

I'm happy with both formats if they're well done.

[Caliban, I had exactly the same reaction as you to the flute solo in the orginal Proms broadcast!]

[Nick Armstrong]

The programme made me want to invest in a complete 10th, but I am nowhwere near being able to decide which one to go for! It seemd that many of the presented versions have something of great merit in them....
I was drawn towards Rattle's BPO version, but having read the postings on here - well that has thrown a cat amongst the pigeons, and I'm now back at square one. Help!!!!

As mentioned above, I've lived with and loved No 10 for 30 years. The BPO/Rattle version is very good, as they said on BAL, but it lacks the freshness of the earlier Bournemouth performance... If you can find a copy of the latter, I must say I'd start with that.

[ardcarp]

Incidentally, no mention of the Huelgas Ensemble's Forty Voice CD earlier in which both the Striggio and the Tallis were given excellent performances?

Heard that, and agree. Interesting instrumental doubling. The Palestrina Papae Marcelli with altos on top wasn't to my taste though. There seemed a mis-match between the lower parts and the very bland top part. Listening to the whole thing (OK I know there were intersersions on the CD) would verge on tedium.