BaL 29.03.14 - Copland's Appalachian Spring

[petermark]

How complete is complete?

The chamber version conducted by Copland though stated as the complete Ballet in its original orchestration, isn't actually the complete work as Copland made some minor cuts for the recording, MTT's Orchestral version of the complete ballet is however complete, also I believe Copland used two extra violins in his chamber recording using 15 players in total rather than 13.

I think you'll find that Leonard Slatkin's recording has more music than either of MTT's. And the now vanished Hugh Wolff recording has even more.

[Bryn]

... the now vanished Hugh Wolff recording has even more.

Vanished? I had better back mine up, just in case.

[Flosshilde]

I thought the selected recording was played as the last item in Monday's 'Essential classics', but last week & today it's been on at 11.00. Has the time been changed or has it always been played at that time?

[DracoM]

It's there to cover the exit etc of the yakking inconsequentially 'guest' who has burbled his / her way from 10.30. They can all enjoy a cup of tea, visit the loo before the hard graft of the rest of the jigsaw 'Essential Classics' has become.

[CallMePaul]

[QUOTE=A pity the recommended version is download only.[/QUOTE]

Why oh why do reviewers even consider downloads? I don't know any classical music lovers who download music and I should point out:-

1. mp3 is a very poor system, designed to be listened to via earbuds and not allowing the music its full dynamic range
2. because of this I and doubtless many other music lovers refuse to invest in the equipment required to play downloads or to visit sites ,such as iTunes where downloads can be bought

Availability of used CD's via Amazon Market Place etc does not mean that the music is in the current catalogue. Is it not too much for the producers to insist that presenters recognise that the programme is called CD Review and that is how most buyers of classical music listen. Downloads may be important for pop charts but not for other music genres!

[Bryn]

Mp3 is indeed a lossy data reduction codec. However, not all downloads are in mp3 format. With a bit of luck lossless downloads can be found of much classical music, often in higher resolution that that offered by CD. In the present case, however, approximately 256kbps joint stereo mp3 is, I think, the best on offer. Some consider that data rate and 'stereo' regime to be transparent (indistinguishable from the CD original). Others hear the data compression artifacts. Once one comes to recognise such artifacts, it is difficult not to hear them.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I have ordered a 2nd hand copy of the recommendes version, but (record companies please note) had the supply dried up I would not have bothered with a download.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Why oh why do reviewers even consider downloads? I don't know any classical music lovers who download music

Doubtless not: but you do know of several Classical Music Lovers who do download - and they and doubtless many other Music lovers are grateful to the reviewers who don't disregard recordings that are only so available.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The Presto website has the Tilson Thomas as the CD recommendation. No mention of the lossy download (though Presto does normally sell them.

[Flosshilde]

Availability of used CD's via Amazon Market Place etc does not mean that the music is in the current catalogue.

Indeed - I would think that a programme such as CD Review has to consider recordings that are currently published & available via 'normal' channels - & ignore recordings that are deleted from the catalogue but might be available in limited numbers from a private supplier in Outer Mongolia for a king's ransome this week but will have disappeared next week.

[Beef Oven!]

CD Review has to consider recordings that are currently published & available via 'normal' channels - & ignore recordings that are deleted from the catalogue but might be available in limited numbers from a private supplier in Outer Mongolia for a king's ransome this week but will have disappeared next week.

You are Godfrey Bloom and I claim my £5

[mercia]

listening to the BAL 'winner' on essential classics yesterday left me even more confused as to how many versions of this piece there are. Yesterday's seemed to me to be identical to (what I call) the chamber version of the suite until we reached the last variation of Simple Gifts where we diverged for a few minutes then returned for that final variation and on to the end as normal. The full orchestral ballet has even more 'extra' music doesn't it? I've decided I prefer the suite, with no extras, in either the chamber or orchestral versions.

[Dave2002]

Some consider that data rate and 'stereo' regime to be transparent (indistinguishable from the CD original). Others hear the data compression artifacts. Once one comes to recognise such artifacts, it is difficult not to hear them.

Is it quite as simple as that? When mp3 and other formats were starting to become popular it was easy to hear the artefacts, and indeed I listened to samples from a site which had recordings compressed at different bit rates for comparison. It was, as you suggest, very easy to hear the artefacts after just a short period of listening to the comparison recordings.

However, as the bit rate rises, the artefacts in the first generation versions do gradually become less obtrusive. They should be at a low level for compressed mp3 or aac audio at bit rates of 256kbps and above, though some say they can still hear the effects. I still generally much prefer to buy CDs or SACDs etc. if there is a choice, though if I could buy lossless or even the more recent so-called hi-res downloads at a reasonable price than I would perhaps not need to buy the physical disc.

One concern is that compressing the audio adds an extra step to the chain of audio processing, and another one is that not all firms supplying digitally compressed audio take as much care over the process as they could or should. Another factor which might affect some people is that transcoding the audio, or making new compressed digital compressed copies can seriously degrade the perceived audio quality, as different lossy encoding algorithms can interact, so that the total perceived degradation can be worse than the sum of the perceived degradation of each individual codec.

A final reason for not buying downloads, not even lossless or hi-res ones, is one I discovered fairly recently. If you buy a disc and put it in a gift bag it is a acceptable as a Christmas or birthday present. Burning a CD-ROM from a download just does not feel or look like a gift I'd want to receive, and I think that perhaps recipients of my home brewed "gifts" feel the same way.

To alpensinfonie - I'd say that downloading is not so difficult, so if it's the only way to get a recording or version you might want, then give it a try, and sometimes there are bargains to be had - but there can also be problems. Generally avoid pieces such as sets of variations which run together - as the problems with gaps/no gaps can totally ruin the listening experience, and this can also affect opera recordings. Worse, some tracks can be played back in the wrong order. However, for "regular" works, symphonies, concertos etc., this isn't normally a problem.

My view is that if the downloads are similarly priced to a physical disc, then I'm not going to buy into that unless there is an outstanding reason to do so, which usually there isn't. This would seem to be the case for the Copland download as long as CDs continue to be available from some sources.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

To alpensinfonie - I'd say that downloading is not so difficult, so if it's the only way to get a recording or version you might want, then give it a try, and sometimes there are bargains to be had - but there can also be problems. Generally avoid pieces such as sets of variations which run together - as the problems with gaps/no gaps can totally ruin the listening experience, and this can also affect opera recordings. Worse, some tracks can be played back in the wrong order. However, for "regular" works, symphonies, concertos etc., this isn't normally a problem.

I have had to buy downloads on occasions. As you say, it isn't difficult, but it puts the owner on the purchaser to faff about burning a CD, printing a cover and notes (if available) all for a sonically inferior product, with unwarranted gaps in the music. which cannot be removed entirely in some instances.

[petermark]

Versions

listening to the BAL 'winner' on essential classics yesterday left me even more confused as to how many versions of this piece there are. Yesterday's seemed to me to be identical to (what I call) the chamber version of the suite until we reached the last variation of Simple Gifts where we diverged for a few minutes then returned for that final variation and on to the end as normal. The full orchestral ballet has even more 'extra' music doesn't it? I've decided I prefer the suite, with no extras, in either the chamber or orchestral versions.

It is very confusing. There are all sorts of relatively little differences between the suite and the complete version - and one big one (the extra music within the 'shaker variations'). Several of the so- called 'complete' versions, the 'winning' Copland recording and those conducted by MTT, don't include any of the extra music until they arrive at the variations, where MTT includes the gentle slow introduction before the tune itself is first heard complete. And then, of course, there's that big 8/9 minute chunk of mostly darker music a little later on.
The only recordings that I'm aware of that include any of the extra music from earlier on are Slatkin's orchestral version (which I suspect uses the orchestral parts that Eugene Ormandy conducted from in 1954 when the Martha Graham company visited Philadelphia and danced AS accompanied by the whole orchestra) and the chamber version with the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra conducted by Hugh Wolff - sadly now very hard to find. It includes more music than any other CD version and is closest to the score as played on the late 50's film of the MGC dancing AS, now available on DVD (and youtube).
And the whole situation isn't helped by the fact that Martha Graham changed things a few times and Copland then suggested ways in which the score might be adapted. I suspect they're mostly small things but I gather that the score that the MG company's MD uses is full of scribbles and 'notes to self'.
Anorak off.
But it is still beautiful, isn't it?